Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Stefan Siikavaara

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #30 on: 04/10/2009 at 18:23 »
Hi Mike!

I have actually seen two people do +100 ft before Fredrik. Mats Boström and Paul Arden. But itīs very rare I think. Most VERY good casters I know fold at about 90 ft, most good casters at about 80 ft.

It is quite a sight I tell you. :shock  

This line likes to be carried.

Best Regards
Stefan
 

Mike Heritage

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #31 on: 04/10/2009 at 19:01 »
100' carry is the stuff of legends, I'm not sure I have ever seen a measured one.

  Mike

Stefan Siikavaara

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #32 on: 04/10/2009 at 20:34 »
Hi Mike!

I am quite sure we can get one on video for you this winter. This carry was witnessed by two people. Fredrik just keeps on booming here, and he has only been casting for one year. He has a full length near dead straight stroke in both directions and a very fast haul, on top of that he steps and slides with his body. And there is still room for improvment incredibly enough!

This is what you want as an instructor, to have your students learn to cast much better than you. But i'ts still bloody annnoying when it happens...  :z4 :z4

I need to increase my stroke length... I predicted this would happen, you canīt compete in running with someone that is taking longer steps than you do. At first you might be in the game with your speed, but only until the guy learns how to step as fast as you do...

Best Regards
Stefan

Mike Barrio

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #33 on: 04/10/2009 at 21:58 »
This is starting to sink in now, fantastic ....... Well done Fredrik!  :z14

What happens when somebody achieves such a big carry Stefan? Are they still able to shoot the line well? How far would you guess somebody might possibly be able to shoot a 5wt from a 90-100 ft carry?

Best wishes
Mike

Stefan Siikavaara

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #34 on: 05/10/2009 at 07:44 »
Hi Mike!

Not far, the longest cast will still come off a much shorter carry. We haven't cracked that one yet. That would possibly need much better timing, tracking and power application than we are able to produce yet. It must be possible though.  

I have to choose myself, either I go for a max carry attempt or I go for a distance shoot attempt. When I try to do both the shoot is very limited and the turnover is more than often compromised.  I can tell you that for me a 90 ft carry means hitting it as hard as I possibly can, absolutely maximum pedal to the metal. I have nothing left to generate more speed for a long delivery shoot. And after four, five cycles I get about as tired as from sprinting 50-60 meters.   

Best regards
Stefan

Mike Heritage

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #35 on: 05/10/2009 at 18:52 »
Spot on Stefan, although I will add that effective carry varies from line to line. I have an effective carry of about 93' with a DT but only 83' with the MED, the Outcast seems to be about 90' or perhaps a bit more. The DT and MED will generally cast within two feet of each other so that means I might shoot an additional 45/50' with the MED but only 25 to 35 with the DT, but you can add another 10' to that when you manage to hook one up properly (which happens now and then). I honestly believe I may top 140 with the Outcast if conditions are right and I manage to hook one up.

 It's certainly got me working on distance again.

  Mike

Ben Dixon

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #36 on: 05/10/2009 at 21:51 »
140' is obscene, would love to see it.  Had another play today and everything was dying at about 110' think it may have been one of those thick air days.  I am liking the line, will put it up against a MED next time I am out.

Ben

Rob Brownfield

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #37 on: 07/10/2009 at 20:58 »
All this is fantastic reading for someone stuck in a hotel room wishing they where at home!!

What really interests me is the different emphisis placed on what you guys are trying to achieve to that used by the distance sea and carp anglers.

I dont think i spotted any of you talking about blank compression, recovery speed, arc, aero dynamics and tradgectory. Perhaps there is an assumption that these go without saying? The holy grail for "lead" casters is a fully compressed blank. Without that, as the rod starts to unwind, the lead is not travelling at its maximum speed. A softer actioned, fully compressed blank will cast further than a half compressed fast action rod.

When carrying a very long fly line, would i be right in saying that the blank might be fully compressed for part of the stroke, but the line will absorb some of the energy as its unrolling at the end of the back cast. Also, the line is not in a perfectly straight line, certainly when I have watched the likes of Ben, the line is very much in an arc, and to my mind, absorbing energy on the forward cast.

If you could get a rod that bent all the way to the handle on the forward cast, but recovered to a "straight rod" exceptionally quickly, you would have a rod that could generate not only a fast tip speed, but also a wider casting arc. A fast action rod cast with a very long, open armed stroke would, i think, be the closest you would get to this...an extended arc, but i think this may then make a bigger loop.

The shape of the lead can make a huge difference indeed. I guess the tightness of the loop would be the equivalent. The tighter the loop, the further the cast. But what about the back cast? Again, picking on Ben  :wink his back cast forms a large "D" loop behind, sometimes actually bouncing on the ground. If that back cast was higher, and dead straight like the front cast, would this not impart the maximum loading on the rod, setting it up for a fully compressed, and therefore high tip speed front cast?

Every fly caster I have watched has had a pretty flat casting tradgectory. The optimum angle for a long cast (lead) or indeed an artillary shell to travel to its maximum distance given a certain force is 45 degrees. Would it be possible to aim the forward cast up and high? I believe this would give extra distance with very little effort. I leave it upto you experts to work out how ;) But i know if I cast from a platform, I can cast further than if I cast when lower down, such as when wading.

Just some inane ramblings and thoughts, but they might spark off some ideas :)

Oh, and one last thing...I have always watched Lefty Kreh with the upmost respect and awe. The way he concentrates on keeping the elbow and hand travelling in a straight line seems to be at odds with what just about every other caster seems to be doing. How come? At 80+ he can still effortlessly cast a full line, even with just the tip. Amazing!

Stefan Siikavaara

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #38 on: 07/10/2009 at 22:10 »
Hi Rob!

Quote
A softer actioned, fully compressed blank will cast further than a half compressed fast action rod.

Why do you think that? How about a fully compressed very stiff blank then?

http://www.edgeforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=96733

Recent scientifc research show that the bending/loading of the rod, as per the "bow and arrow effect" equates to about 10-20 percent of the line speed in a cast. Rod loading is not a major source of line speed as people used to belive.

http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/rodcast.shtml

Best Regards
Stefan

Rob Brownfield

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #39 on: 07/10/2009 at 22:59 »
Hi Rob!

Why do you think that? How about a fully compressed very stiff blank then?

Because a softer blank will have more stored energy if it is fully compressed on the forward stroke, producing a longer, smoother arc to unwind. A stiffer, half compressed blank would have less energy stored and a much shorter arc to unwind.

I think :)

A stiff, compressed blank has a shorter arc..perhaps an advantage with a fly line????

The best comparison I can think of, using your bow and arrow example, is that the english used longbows against the French. The bow was softer and stored more energy than the Frenchs "normal" sized bows that apparently where very hard to pull back due to there construction. Thus the English could fire more arrows, further and for sustained periods.

Or so my history teacher told me some 30 years ago :)


As for your point about loading, its interesting that from a fly perspective, the theory/research is at a completely opposite end of the spectrum to what is talked about/practiced with a lead.

However, I have to say I do come down firmly in the side of the "must compress blank" camp through experience with carp and sea rods. Until I learnt the technique of the Pendulum cast, I was hitting maybe 130 metres, i could not compress the blank. As soon as I learnt the cast and managed to compress, my best cast hit 210 metres..a pretty substantial improvement...but i was using less power, better timining and a cast that extended the arc thus allowing the blank to compress over a longer period, but recover in a short "stop".

I remember science once said the earth is flat..and we all know it is actually square ;)

Thanks for your reply....got me thinking again..a dangerous thing..lol.

Ben Dixon

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #40 on: 07/10/2009 at 23:23 »
Rob,

The bouncing of the line on the back cast is intentional and does actually give more line speed.  When carrying a long line, the rod is translated for as long as possible and then "flopped" over, the rotation coming as late as possible with as much speed as possible and a stop is definitely not in there or even part of the game plan.  The direction that the main mass of the line is sent in is what is important, the head is flying straight, as fast as I can throw it, no stop, and the counterflex of the rod takes the running line down, the head then pulls this straight before the FC.  I do not stop on the FC either, I simply time the rotation, release and haul to give the required trajectory and try to do as Paul does, aim it as high as I can without it tailing, the loop starts off huge, then morphs tight as it flies and comes under tension.  If you watch a slo mo clip of a 170 stroke and compare it to a more conventional stroke you will see the difference in rod compression, TCR's are hard to bend through the cork with a conventional cast.

You coming to the Outcasts day on the 1st?

Cheers

Ben

Sandy Nelson

Re: Barrio Competition Line New
« Reply #41 on: 08/10/2009 at 02:22 »
 :z2 Interesting stuff
but I'm afraid I'm with stefan
the stiffer rod will store more energy, it just takes more
energy to bend it To it's limit(basic physics,energy in=energy out)
it is easier to store the energy in the softer blank therefore more easy to achieve a maximum potential
that maximum will be much higher for a stiffer rod ( a reason why they are often easier to break)
your analagy for the longbow is correct but for the opposite reason
to which you used it. Longbows were notoriously hard to bend and that is why
they had such immense range, the power they could store was phenomenal
compared to other bows of the day.
I too am stuck in a hotel.
The arc thing is a good point, watch mr heritage on video :wink
that part is right enough.
The other advatage of the stiffer rod for casting flyrods at distance
is the speed of recovery. The faster the tip recovers on the fwd cast
then the less energy is wasted and the line should carry more speed.
There are plenty other physical factors from the weather, humidity , air pressure etc
to make a difference.
All in it makes for an interesting topic, what I can say was the one thing
we noticed with distance lines was they did not really turnover very well
and that seemed to cost people a lot of extra feet, that has been the real trick
for Mike to crack. But it looks good so far.

Sandy 

Stefan Siikavaara

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #42 on: 08/10/2009 at 07:29 »
Hi Rob!

Quote
As for your point about loading, its interesting that from a fly perspective, the theory/research is at a completely opposite end of the spectrum to what is talked about/practiced with a lead.

Is there any research going on on the lead side?

I am not surprised, this is what they used to talk about/practise on the fly side before aswell. First is was mainly catapult. Then they used to talk about a 50/50 ratio as in the rod catapulting 50% of the total line speed in a cast. Now when they have the proper equipment and method to measure it, it turned out to be 10-20%.

The theory that the rod works as a catapult and that rod loading is the major contributor to line speed is flat earth theory. I know how it feels like but itīs still wrong.

Look at the tip-path a bending rod gives you. The bending allows you to track that rod tip resonable straight through a rotational movement. The rod is a flexible lever.

As for the part the rod plays in distance casting, also have a look at this article. http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/8rod.shtml  It suggests, among other things, that  "distance rods" has a higher standard deviation. The hardware capable of producing the longest casts might not be the easiest hardware to handle.

Itīs not the car, itīs the driver.

Best regards
Stefan

Mike Heritage

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #43 on: 08/10/2009 at 21:00 »
Like Stefan say's flycasting is 80 percent leverage. We load a rod to produce SLP, not to catapult the line, the bonus is that we may gain a 20 percent increase in line velocity as the rod unloads.

 Rob, the reason we are not discussing casting technique or rod mechanics is because, in this case, it's the line we are discussing. In fact the line is actually more important than the rod, especially in distance casting. I would bet that if you gave most casters six different five weight rods with the same line on their best cast with each rod would be within a yard of each other, probably less.

  Mike

Rob Brownfield

Re: Barrio Competition Line
« Reply #44 on: 08/10/2009 at 22:25 »
Fair comment Mike H ...it was a line thread originally :)

Most of my lines are rather silly...shooting heads, Outbounds etc and 9, 10 and 11 weight..so the subtlety of long range 5 weights is lost on me a bit. If I want distance, I reach for the heads and the 9 weight Helios :)

I do have a ZG 5 weight and that rod really did point out the differences between lines quite dramatically for me..and it really made me think about line choice. I must take it upto Mikes and try the comp line with it.

 




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