Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Hamish Young

The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« on: 21/01/2020 at 20:30 »
Recently I attended the annual general meeting of the Ness DSFB  held in Inverness.
The Ness DSFB staff do a great job with limited resources, this I knew and whilst there was interesting stuff to discuss it was the guest speaker that swung it for me as a 'must do' so I managed to get a seat for the evening.

The guest speaker was Mark Bilsby, Mark is the Executive Director of the Atlantic Salmon Trust (AST)and his name would likely be familiar to many on this forum as he was formerly the  Director of both the River Dee Trust and Dee District Salmon Fisheries Board.  I don't know Mark well, but our paths have crossed over the years with different projects and I appreciate his practical no-nonsense approach to presenting facts and information.

Mark was at the Ness event to talk about the Missing Salmon Project, his talk was thought provoking, shocking, informative and has fundamentally shifted some of my thoughts about the issues surrounding the diminishing Salmon stocks of the UK.
It will also see me switch from supporting the Wild Trout Trust (as I have pretty much since its inception) to putting those small monies towards the continued work of the AST.  For me, that's a big thing giving up the WTT for something else and trust me, the AST needs it more.

To find out more about what I'm so concerned about you should watch these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXsDg09-APY42c1zCao4lRx-nYkSTeJ3d

My thoughts are dominated by what I will call the scary part.  Statistics.
OK, next to lies comes damned lies and then statistics.... but on the Ness system 91% (yes, 91%) of the smolts tagged in this project did not make it to sea. Think about that for a minute. That is an astonishing figure, 91% mortality rate before reaching the sea :? :! The assumption has largely been a marine predation issue has been the root cause, this data suggests we have far bigger problems with freshwater predation.

Finding out why this is happening is part of the next step in the project, which I will be following with trepidation for the future.

Do, please, read the support material on the AST website and watch the videos. Also, look at the piece in the latest edition of Fly Fishing and Fly Tying.

H

James Laraway

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #1 on: 22/01/2020 at 09:38 »
91 % ? Urgh. No wonder I have decided not to bother trying to catch a salmon this year....

I guess that the plan is to tag smolts from the various rivers in the system differently and then try and work out of some of the rivers are 'worse' than others in terms of mortality ?

As the Ness itself is at the bottom of the system it would be tricky to work out if the smolts captured there are 'native' to the Ness or have come down from one of the other rivers though...

Where there any stats comparing mortality in the Ness system with the Beauly system for example ?


Hamish Young

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #2 on: 22/01/2020 at 20:16 »
91 % ? Urgh. No wonder I have decided not to bother trying to catch a salmon this year....
That was on the Ness system, others have faired far better.
I guess that the plan is to tag smolts from the various rivers in the system differently and then try and work out of some of the rivers are 'worse' than others in terms of mortality ?
I'm sure someone said each transponder carried by the smolts is unique, so they don't necessarily need to be tagged differently per se.
As the Ness itself is at the bottom of the system it would be tricky to work out if the smolts captured there are 'native' to the Ness or have come down from one of the other rivers though...
I believe they were from Garry, so had the river, Loch Oich, the River Oich, Loch Ness, Loch Dochfour and the River Ness to go through (nevermind the Caledonian Canal) before reaching the 'safety' of the sea. So when Ness is applied as terminology in this project, it means the whole system/catchment.
Where there any stats comparing mortality in the Ness system with the Beauly system for example ?
I believe the figures were around 50% as a mean across the project rivers.

Nevertheless, the losses are more significant than previously thought.

H

Steven Sinclair

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #3 on: 22/01/2020 at 21:08 »
Hamish,

I guess the only thing I'm curious of is whether the actual tagging itself has caused such a high mortality rate?

Whilst it does seem as though there's something seriously wrong somewhere.  The part I can't get my head around is that the smolts appear to survive relatively happily up until they start migrating downstream. Other than the tagging what else has really changed for them conditions wise whilst they descend the system?  I'm merely thinking out loud here but if say predation was the primary issue from goosanders/cormorants etc during the smolt run was there any way of knowing this from the tagging? I.e could it somehow be proved that the tags were no longer in the river system at all (birds had flown off with them in their gut?)

This may all have been answered in the link you posted and if so I apologise as I am currently behind the great firewall of China 👎

 :z18

Steven.

Derek Roxborough

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #4 on: 22/01/2020 at 22:13 »
perhaps the 120,000 salmon missing now from Mowi cages will be taken into account,an article said that wild salmon have up to 25% of farmed genes detectable in them now, what price the Aquaculture industries saviour of wild salmon, because this was one of their claims in the early days, Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #5 on: 23/01/2020 at 08:54 »
I guess the only thing I'm curious of is whether the actual tagging itself has caused such a high mortality rate?
Smolts are hardy things, they need to be, and whilst there's always going to be a number that don't survive the process the vast majority do make it through tagging. I have tagged and injected smolts in the past, the sedation and recovery techniques in fish management are well known and competent so the fish are minimally stressed.  So whilst it's not unreasonable to think that the tagging would make a difference the reality is it will be minimal.
Whilst it does seem as though there's something seriously wrong somewhere.  The part I can't get my head around is that the smolts appear to survive relatively happily up until they start migrating downstream. Other than the tagging what else has really changed for them conditions wise whilst they descend the system?  I'm merely thinking out loud here but if say predation was the primary issue from goosanders/cormorants etc during the smolt run was there any way of knowing this from the tagging? I.e could it somehow be proved that the tags were no longer in the river system at all (birds had flown off with them in their gut?)
I think it's important to say that the handling of the smolts is far less invasive or damaging than being stuck in the turbines of a hydro electric system and so on.  The problem is possibly in the nature of the smolt migration to sea, they group together in shoals for pretty much the first time as smolts and move en masse, which makes them a visible and easy target for predators.
Although not exclusively, smolts typically descend the river by night - presumably to help reduce possible avian predation - but their journey can take days (weeks?) depending on the size of the system. 
We know for sure that the number of goosanders has increased markedly and no doubt they're having an impact as - typically - shoals of  smolts travel in shallower water.
Of course it may well be that freshwater predation is at the same level it always has been and the larger problem lies in the big unknown 'the sea' but I don't buy that and nor do I subscribe to the freshwater 'problem' being the whole story - it's not, but the problem in freshwater is far bigger than had been assumed. That makes the project invaluable in putting the picture of what is impacting on our wild Salmon stocks together.
When it comes to determining what has predated on the smolts I don't know if there is scope (as there was with adults tagged returning to the Beauly Firth) for determining what had predated on the fish. For the adult salmon so tagged they could determine what had predated on them by location, temperature and so on.
Interestingly, the system with the greatest number of lochs on it - or largest amount of stillwater - was the system with the worst smolt to sea numbers. I will be super-interested to see what they find out about that.
This may all have been answered in the link you posted and if so I apologise as I am currently behind the great firewall of China 👎
In part, yes. Once you're home again have a good look through the material  :z16

Hamish Young

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #6 on: 23/01/2020 at 09:03 »
perhaps the 120,000 salmon missing now from Mowi cages will be taken into account,an article said that wild salmon have up to 25% of farmed genes detectable in them now, what price the Aquaculture industries saviour of wild salmon, because this was one of their claims in the early days, Derek Roxborough
I think it's a fair point that is often over-looked, escapee farmed fish from the domestic and scandinavian producers have an international impact. If escapee farmed fish (at all stages of life) become naturalised then their genes will inevitably have an impact on the native gene pool. I remember one of my old college lecturers saying to me that the average farmed rainbow trout had more geneticlaly in common with a banana than it did with it's wild forebears.  I hope we don't see that happening in Salmon.

I think the technology and skills developed in fish farming absolutely has its place in saving Salmon, just not in the way the industry suggested it might less than a decade ago.

H

Duncan McRae

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #7 on: 24/01/2020 at 12:52 »
It's probably no coincidence that the Goosander broods appear at almost exactly the same time as the Smolt run :z10

Cameron deBoth

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #8 on: 24/01/2020 at 13:34 »
It's probably no coincidence that the Goosander broods appear at almost exactly the same time as the Smolt run :z10

I saw 12 Goosanders working a pool at the same time in the lower Dee last year.

James Laraway

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #9 on: 24/01/2020 at 15:34 »
I see that Jim Ratcliffe ( Ineos) is holding a conference on the future of wild salmon in Iceland as he is concerned at the decreasing numbers of salmon returning to the Icelandic rivers.

It would be nice to be able to buy your own rivers right enough ( he owns 1% of Iceland apparently  - so if you see him on the river it would be worth chumming him up)




Bob Mitchell

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #10 on: 03/02/2020 at 10:15 »
Regarding smolts/parr. Was looking at my Observers book of birds 1957 edition. Goosanders and mergansers were only seen on a regular basis in the far north of Scotland if one was lucky.
The big hatches of big dark olives have from what I have seen disappeared from the Tummel [East Haugh.] Going by the amount of blanket weed in the river in low water it would appear to me that works need done on the sewage treatment plants. All these things work against the fish. Deal with these and then worrie about the problems at sea.
Bob.

Hamish Young

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2020 at 19:40 »
Recently I had a very interesting chat with a couple of anglers who fish the Beauly.
It all went a bit 'Pete Tong' when one may have suggested the lack of returning Salmon was a Trout problem..... 'it's all down to the Trout, Sea Trout in particular are a real problem and decimate smolts'.

I may have considered inflicting serious bodily harm at this stage - but I didn't. Instead I'm told that the look of contempt and vaguely hidden anger on my face as I turned and walked away was sufficient for the angler to say no more to me on the subject.

Thing is, I don't disagree - trout do munch on smolts - but only a proper weapons grade window licker would suggest that they're the real problem.
Anglers, they're a bit like cormorants. You can't shoot them  :z7 :z4

Grrrr.

H

Bob Mitchell

Re: The Missing Salmon Project - some thoughts
« Reply #12 on: 07/02/2020 at 08:58 »
Parr certainly eat smaller parr as do browns and have possibly done so since fish came in to rivers. That is one of the reasons I like to see plenty of minnows and young grayling in the river. [Only speaking about the river Earn] As the vast shoals of grayling have disappeared and the browns almost as bad there is only parr left to feed on. When I can count 70 plus goosanders flying upstream in a morning and the grayling have only gone as the goosanders got more numerous  there is only one conclusion to come to.
Bob.

 




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