Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #15 on: 21/01/2008 at 19:16 »
Had a fondle of the Helios today

9ft 5wt, tip flex
9ft 5wt mid flex
9ft 8wt mid flex
8ft 3wt mid flex

Very light indeed, the 9ft 5wt was 2 3/8ths oz even lighter than i thought

will get to cast them next week all being well, we'll see what they are like
Didn't seem that special today having a waggle, but then thats often the case :z6
Was dissappointed with the build though, the cork was only OK and a lot of the rings had blobs of resin on them, for a very expensive rod it was unacceptable, interesting reel seat, lots of holes (always handy on a mistress :shock)

Sandy

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #16 on: 22/01/2008 at 08:27 »
Sandy,
you supprise me. The 9 weight i saw was spot on..but then again it was one of the 250 limited edition ones, maybe they are limited as they are the only well built ones  :z4

I do get very annoyed when poor cork is used and then filled. I know its hard to come by, but if I can get Fluor grade cork then surely the might of a big company can too.

Hamish Young

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #17 on: 22/01/2008 at 10:16 »
I'll be interested to see them, like I said earlier in this thread I've found their top end stuff to be a smidgen dissapointing (when it comes to build quality). If you charge a premier price it's not unreasonable to expect a premier product so I agree with you Rob, if the private rod builder can get his/her mitts on decent cork then I damn sure any commercial firm can.

Remind me to tell you the next time I see you of what Sandy found under the cork of a certain Orvis rod in my possesion  :shock

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #18 on: 22/01/2008 at 12:19 »
I think I already know!!.. :wink

But you only have to look at some of the other top end rods to be dissapointed. I picked up a 15 foot Angel only to spot bubbles in the finish and threads not very well wrapped..and that was £999.  A chap i know from the Midmar Inn was given an 8 weight Angel for a trip to Belize..he did not even get a cast from it, it broke when he was threading the line. Turned out to be faulty resin in the blank.

To tell the truth, its disgusting the quality of some rods out there, be they UK, US or Far Eastern.

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #19 on: 22/01/2008 at 16:54 »
I think there have been a lot of problems with the angels breaking.

There are a lot of people talking up special resins with regard to the new rods on the market over the last few months, so far the evidence is they are unreliable as far as breaking goes, even if  they are super light and thin, if they are brittle to the point where people are breaking them under normal use (casting) then something is wrong.
Perhaps they (the manufacturers) are just trying to hard.
Maybe its EVO syndrome, fantastic performance as long as you dont mind it falling apart around you. Mega bucks for what it is but no-one would accept the build quality on an ordinary product that was a 1/3rd of the price, but becasue of what it does, people do :z6 its a funny old world :z6

Sandy

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #20 on: 23/01/2008 at 10:11 »
I understand the Angels had a problem that meant the resin had tiny air bubbles in it..and thus this weakened them. The blanks i use for all the carp and pike rods I build for folk come from Harrisons and Century Composites. Both companies autoclave there blanks to remove any air in the scrim or resin. I have never had a rod back..and my own Century Pike rods are going strong some 15 years on. The quality of the blanks are second to none.


Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #21 on: 23/01/2008 at 15:37 »
Rob

I thought all carbon blanks had to go in an Autoclave, without the heat or pressure the prepregs dont work.In fact i though it went for all carbon fibre products.

The problems with airbubbles maybe to do with the humidity/uncontrolled enviroment when the cloths are applied to the mandrels.
Also I belive the newer resins require higher temps and pressures to activate and this is possibly the reason for some of the high tech blanks having cavities as well as air bubbles.If the resin doesn't flow into the cloth properly then the rod will have serious weak spots, unfortunatley some aspects of quality control are lacking in some quarters it seems :z6
In fact i would possibly even suggest some manufacturers are using materials that on paper will give them awesome performance, but the rest of the production facility is not up to the closer tolerances required. I would reckon the appearance of military spec aviation grade composites , is not being mirrored by an investment in the conditions/equipment required to cure these high tech materials in the correct fashion.
The raw materials are cheap, the equipment to use them is Not.

Sandy

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #22 on: 23/01/2008 at 15:47 »
Its the old problem of trying to save weight but keep strength.  there are 2 ways too design a rod and get equal stiffness, fast taper thin wall or slow taper thicker wall. The first saves weight but having a thin wall means any bubbles will be a higher percentage of the wall thickness , on a slow taper thicker wall it is not so important as it is a lesser percentage of the wall thickness.  B+W, diawa were built the first way and had many failures, hardy have oved to this position and are now experiencing the same problems .  The pursuit of lightness is not always the best path.  jim

Rob Brownfield

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #23 on: 23/01/2008 at 15:59 »
Sandy,
My understanding is that normally the carbon component is cured in an oven, without pressure.

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #24 on: 23/01/2008 at 20:30 »

My understanding is that normally the carbon component is cured in an oven, without pressure.

Perhaps this is the problem?

My knowledge of Carbonfibre component production is obviously quite different to yours, could be down to grades involved, perhaps.

there are 2 ways too design a rod and get equal stiffness, fast taper thin wall or slow taper thicker wall.

What about different modulus cloths, additional materials, variations in the layup of cloths, different types of scrim as well different modulus of resins.

having a thin wall means any bubbles will be a higher percentage of the wall thickness , on a slow taper thicker wall it is not so important as it is a lesser percentage of the wall thickness. 

If the wall is thicker then there is more material, if there is more material of a similar type to the thin wall, then there will be a proportionally greater number of bubbles in the thicker wall so the effects are likely to be the same. Inclusions are a bigger problem and can affect any carbon component.

The pursuit of lightness is not always the best path.  jim

Couldn't agree more :z16 Recovery rate is far more important, but then that involves removing mass and increasing stiffness, finding a compromise that manages to tick all the boxes is the elusive holy grail of fly rods.

Durability and practicality against performance The Porsche 911 of the fishing rod world.

Or for the mid budget the Golf GTI :z7

Or for starters the Fiat Panda 100HP.

Ye pays yer money and takes yer pick :z7

Sandy





Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #25 on: 23/01/2008 at 22:26 »
Dosnt matter about modulas cloth or resin type.  A flaw in a thin walled rod is magnified as the tolerancies  are so fine.  It is a bit simplistic and you are right about newer materials but it was how it was explained to me in the B+W factory .  jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #26 on: 24/01/2008 at 06:06 »
Dosnt matter about modulas cloth or resin type.

Really?

Sandy  :-*

Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #27 on: 24/01/2008 at 11:41 »
I think we are talking at cross purposes here.  Yes the stiffness of a rod is effected by the materials, however the principle remains the same, the thinner the wall of the blank the greater the effect of any flaw . :cool: jim

Sandy Nelson

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #28 on: 24/01/2008 at 12:46 »
This is fun :grin

So if the modulus of the materials does now affect the stiffness of the blank (about 95% effect with carbon fibre) And perhaps if we regard the fact that when carbon rods are the subject then Taper has almost no effect at all, (unlike bamboo) then we can talk about wall thickness.

Thin walled blanks are more prone to deformation than a thick walled blank, they are tubes after all, however if the thin walled tube is of a larger diameter than the thick walled tube then the stiffness assuming the same modulus of material, will be about the same. Elasticity of the material during the deformation affects how well it regains its shape, this is affected by the cloth, resin and scrim type used. This is where all the rod building science goes these days.
Flaws in any material subject to stress will cause problems, what you tend to find with flaws in composite is the micro cracks will propagate from flaw to flaw, the more or larger the flaws the faster the cracks will propagate, eventually they will become critical and the material will break. I can see how an assumption that a thin wall will break more easily, if it is created under the same conditions and from the same material as the the thicker wall , would work. There is less material therefore less micro cracks are required to reach the critical point.
Problems is, if the designer is building a thin walled blank then they will select appropriate materials that allow the tube to deform more readily and with greater elasticity and therefore not crack so quickly, likewise if they design a thicker walled blank they will select materials appropriate to the purpose.

So materials are the prime mover in the design of a blank and they will dictate how thick a wall is to be made and what the properties of the finished rod will be. Incorrect manufacturing of said materials is what will cause the problems. Building any carbon fibre product that is to be subjected to a variety of stresses is a very intensive and clinical procedure, the very fine tolerances required as the grades increase need very specialised equipment and i still reckon thats the problem, the machines being used are not up the requirements of the materials. Modern resins need to be hotter and under greater pressure than ever before.

Interestingly Modulus was a big issue even with bamboo/cane rods. Flaming rods increases the modulus of the material (by expelling moisture), therefore making the rod stiffer and quicker (taper staying the same) but go too far and the rod becomes brittle. Nodes are the issue with Boo, natural flaws, staggering them was the best solution to making the rod stronger, handy when you can see the flaws :grin

Sandy


Jim Doyle

Re: I need a new mistress
« Reply #29 on: 24/01/2008 at 13:03 »
The reason that B+W started to develope the hexagon rod was to try and cut down on flaws being a problem.  It was Richard Walker who put forward the theory that a hexagonal rod would potentially eliminate the distortion problem of a Tube.  However the building of such a rod was fraught with dificulties , so much so that they were constructed on the flat and then cut to shape and glued together in the same manner as a cane rod.  Interestingly messers Bruce and Walker said it was easier to detect flaws by this method, i suppose they had cross sections of the blank they could check. I have examples of very early carbon blanks from several companies and the wall thickness ? taper is quite amusing.  jim :wink

 




Barrio Fly Lines - designed in Scotland - Cast with confidence all over the world

Barrio Fly Lines

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