Fishing The Fly Forum, based in Aberdeenshire,  Scotland

Hamish Young

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2018, 17:36:31 PM »
Ah! fishery scientists what have they ever done for us? :X2 Derek Roxborough
We stand a real chance of multi-quoting Monty Python here  :z4 :z18
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Allan Liddle

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 09:58:58 AM »
I can't help think that this "species" tag is a bit misleading.

"Lighter skin and larger mouth and eyes...."

Imagine if we looked at humans and said "oh, they have lighter skin and blue eyes, they are a different species".

Genetic variation, yes, new species? Nope!


100% correct Rob and something we all need to be aware of to end the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of out native trout.  Essentially the same species with genetic differences that has evolved to fill every niche in it's given environment which for me makes it the best fish we have. 

Andy MacArthur

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2018, 15:30:51 PM »
I wasn’t aware there were so many qualified biologists on this forum......

Hamish Young

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2018, 16:38:23 PM »
Good news - there are more than one or two :z16

Even more good news..... an amateur with an ACME box of kindling built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

Merry Christmas  :z18

 
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Andy MacArthur

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2018, 17:03:25 PM »
You would have thought they would be better versed  in the genetic basis for inheritance and speciation from the view point of reproductive isolation? Merry Xmas. 😀
       
PS. Curious as to how one can claim to be a biologist and simultaneously believe in Arks? 😉

Derek Roxborough

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2018, 19:42:50 PM »
because he 's called Arkwright?  :X2  Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2018, 08:49:16 AM »
You would have thought they would be better versed  in the genetic basis for inheritance and speciation from the view point of reproductive isolation? Merry Xmas. 😀
I had a most enjoyable Christmas day - thanks  :z16
When it comes down to it I'm an ichthyologist, not a biologist.  Genetics takes me back a long time to my student days and it annoyed the shit out of me then, some 30 years later it's fair to say I'm not as 'up on it' as I could be....
So although not a biologist, and merely a studier of fish, I had dismissed the idea that peripatric speciation had occurred due to the extent of the environment.
Sympatric speciation is probably the strongest argument for Salmo Laidon (Benthivourous) being a new species.
But to my eyes there is insufficient evidence in the material I have read to date that sufficiently demonstrates that Salmo Laidon (Benthivourous) is a new species, or Ferox, or Gilaroo and so on.

It's the sort of topic that would have kept Vroomfondel, Majikthise and other members of the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and other professional thinking persons busy for many years in debate.

PS. Curious as to how one can claim to be a biologist and simultaneously believe in Arks? 😉
Fortunately, as I'm not a biologist, this doesn't immediately apply to me. That said, I like a good story and I don't have to believe it's true to enjoy the writers work.
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Derek Roxborough

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2018, 14:32:35 PM »
Biology, Smiology, I am an ex- engineer, with an interest In all things fishy, ( not Dodgy), so I do tend to read a bit, if we didn't have that interest where would we be? :shock Derek Roxborough

Andy MacArthur

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2018, 15:14:17 PM »
The Ernst Mayr definition of species quoted previously  is somewhat outdated as it cannot be universally applied to all living organisms.
The Laidon trout certainly qualify as a  species as they fulfil the criteria of the current species concepts in use ie. Morphological, Ecological, Genetic and Bioeconomic. 
Don’t shoot the messenger if this wasn’t what you learned in school ... just saying.

Hamish Young

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2018, 16:45:07 PM »
The Laidon trout certainly qualify as a  species as they fulfil the criteria of the current species concepts in use ie. Morphological, Ecological, Genetic and Bioeconomic.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

We have been through many changes in scientific understanding of flora and fauna in my short time on this planet and I am sure - whilst folk continue to widely disagree on the facts presented to them which will continue ad nauseum and is very probably a large part of the human condition.
Strikes me we are getting ever closer to seeing a revival in the taxonomy of the Victorians, will we see  Salmo fario , Salmo lacustris, Salmo ferox and a host of others reappearing :?  Possibly.

I'll be meeting up with some biologists for the river systems near to me this coming month, be interesting to see what their take on it all is.  As the evidence is there to support it, I would opt for subspecies or forms over new species - but I am not a biologist.

Don’t shoot the messenger if this wasn’t what you learned in school ... just saying.
Amongst other functions the purpose of this forum is to provide a means for information exchange, discussion and debate for individuals who are (by and large) unlikely to meet. College was some time ago for me, whilst I am possibly wiser (and certainly older) than I was then, I still understand that discussion and debate is always worth pursuing when seeking knowledge and understanding. This can be challenging at times, but is always worthwhile.
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Derek Roxborough

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2018, 23:12:09 PM »
will trutta laidonensis be able to breed with Trutta Trutta, or any of the other truttas,? Naturally of course, if this is the case then surely it's the same? or am I being naïve? perhaps the earlier " Observers Book of British Fishes" was the Victorian version? with all the different  types,,  :z8 , Derek Roxborough

Andy MacArthur

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2018, 00:32:03 AM »
Lions and tigers can breed a produce fertile offspring?  Would  you  say they were the same species Derek?
As previously mentioned the old concept of species isn’t a ‘catch all’ and definitions have changed and evolved to reflect this.

Derek Roxborough

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2018, 15:10:43 PM »
Both felines, may be it's a stripey thing, I thought that Ligers or Tigons were sterile, but there you go, that's what engineers think, :z18 Derek Roxborough

Terry Coging

Re: New species of Brown trout
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2018, 13:46:26 PM »
We should stick to being engineers Derek and try to baffle the biologists  :z4

 




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