Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Hamish Young

One step forward.... several steps back
« on: 24/11/2018 at 20:44 »
Recently I attended a presentation by the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust at the Cannich village hall. Bearing in mind  it wasn't well publicised, the event was supported well by the local community and a few interlopers from further down the glen (such as myself).
The Trust were there at the behest of the RSPB - not one of my favourite organisations, as it happens - to talk about the 'Scottish Invasive Species Initiative' or 'SISI'.
Before I get too carried away, 'SISI' is generally being 'targetted' for funding by the large majority of fisheries trusts. Have a look at the website here https://www.invasivespecies.scot/ I have to say if there is something going on in your part of Scotland then find the time to lend a hand, I know I will be.

So... why would I say one step forward and several steps back :? Well it's pretty simple. Whilst SISI is a start and it is a step forward it would seem that in securing the initiative some invasive species are not being considered.

I'm going to start with the Goosander.
Goosanders are piscivorous members of the saw-bill family.  They were introduced into the UK as an ornamental species (presumably to look nice in ponds and possibly pies) in the mid to late 19th century and by the late 20th century they had resident populations across the UK.  They adapted and there is now a significant resident population in the UK, in addition large populations that overwinter in the UK.
They are a non-indigenous invasive species with a voracious appetite for fish . Their population was previously well controlled by keepers, estates and fisheries but these days they are a protected species and it's really quite hard to get a control licence.

So the first thing that is (oddly enough) a step backwards is failing to deal with the avian issue. It's more than just Goosanders, of course, that are a cause of feathered furore.  Thing is, no-one wants to deal with the issue of bird control, it's hard enough getting folk to understand that mink must be controlled/removed.... a wee birdie :? How much harm could it possibly do :? :!
These are presumably the same people that think seals are just the labradors of the sea and everyone's best mate....

I digress.  I'll come to more on this another time, but I'd be interested to see what you all think about invasive species and their control. What is an invasive species ??? :? :!

H

Derek Roxborough

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #1 on: 24/11/2018 at 21:41 »
I was at a meeting where pike were mentioned and a member of the Inverness pike fishers was very put out at the Idea that pike was an non-native species, while I have no problems with contained invasive species I can understand other peoples views ( our club has a pair of pike lochs introduced over 100 years ago by the estate) but they are so well established I doubt whether they could be cleared other than poisoning the total area of water, so we make the most of it during the winter, Derek Roxborough

Euan Innes

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #2 on: 24/11/2018 at 22:21 »
Short reply after a lot of whisky is,
the foreign fish eating bastards need shotgunned! I see too many on the rivers and shit needs to get real.
More enlightened answer to follow... :z4 :z4 :z4

Euan

Steven Sinclair

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #3 on: 24/11/2018 at 23:50 »
Short reply after a lot of whisky is,
the foreign fish eating bastards need shotgunned! I see too many on the rivers and shit needs to get real.
More enlightened answer to follow... :z4 :z4 :z4

Euan

Are we still talking about birds here or humans...

Steven Sinclair

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #4 on: 25/11/2018 at 02:16 »
H,

Whilst I whole heartedly agree on the subject of goosanders the only thing I would ask is where should we draw the line regarding invasive species? For me it's a bit of a tricky subject. First of all I wonder how far we should go back before we'd class a species as native? I also think we have to be careful that we are not seen to be doing it purely for the benefit of ourselves rather than nature.

Here's one example that I have been pondering on for a while. Where do you stand in regards to trout in New Zealand?

 I have spent quite a bit of time down there (honeymoon and work) chasing trout and I have read recently that there has been a push to potentially eradicate trout in order to allow protect/enhance native fish stocks. Fighting to keep them there would be no different to say Rob fighting for Pike to be kept in a Scottish loch that was stocked say 100 years ago.

It's a tricky subject for sure and it's not something I have an answer for  :z8

Steven.

Bob Mitchell

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #5 on: 25/11/2018 at 08:54 »
Very interesting. Thanks for that.
The stuff that looks like wild rhubarb that comes early on in the season [I do not know its name] is a plant that I have been told has been used to find a cure for cancer. There was a person walking down the river who asked me if it would be ok to take some of it. He explained that they had been trying to grow it for various medicines but been unable.
Goosanders must be the best breeding duck that there is. To me it is one thing we could start on to help the salmon etc.
Mink should be completely  removed as they will do that to any thing that comes there way.
Bob.

Hamish Young

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #6 on: 25/11/2018 at 09:35 »
You know Steven the thing here for me is we need to make pragmatic decisions, those decision must be part of a long term plan and they must be stuck to and be for the good of the environment we have and the one we hope to have.

I can't speak for New Zealand, never been, but the removal of one of the key tourism attractions that brings many hundreds of thousands of dollars to the economy every year would seem to be less than pragmatic....

The truth is we live in a managed environment, pure and simple - where man has trodden he has bent that environment to his will, needs and desires. Often (probably mostly, to be fair) at the expense of native ecosystems. If you create an environment that requires constant maintenance it's daft not to continue that management, as custodians for future generations strikes me we should do more about ensuring the survival of our indigenous fish species less they disappear in their entirety.
When it comes to UK fisheries management there are a broad palette of issues to be attended to, particularly when it comes to the diminishing resource of Salmon and Sea Trout stocks. Within my lifetime the number of Salmon going through the dams on the Beauly has dropped from something over 40,000 per annum to less than a tenth of that amount. This year, I am told the count is likely to be less than 3,000 fish returning.
It's likely that less than 80,000 smolts will make it to sea this spring coming and God alone knows what will happen to them at sea.
Thing is, we do know what impacts on these fish in freshwater - yet we deal with the side issues and not the principal predators.
This seems highly illogical, if you know where some of the issues are then you address those to do what you can to ensure efforts on improving habitat are not entirely wasted by offering a free smorgasbord of fish populations to our avian 'friends' - and mink, and.... so on.
We used to manage goosanders, cormorants and seals, but these days some special 'high velocity loving' is apparently one of the most heinous environmental crimes.
I accept the removal of 'invasive species' is likely to be far more effective for plants than it is for birds and fish (I'm not touching on minnows, perch or pike as yet ;) ) but we must do something as part of a co-ordinated effort towards securing future populations.  We also have to dispel with the myth that it's 'invasive species' only that require attention, seal populations have quadrupled in recent years.
So the strides that have been made in habitat improvement and management, the opening up of spawning water and all the initiatives that sit there as 'tools' for 21st century fisheries management seem to be stymied by a failure to deal with predation issues.

H

Rob Brownfield

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #7 on: 26/11/2018 at 08:25 »
Fighting to keep them there would be no different to say Rob fighting for Pike to be kept in a Scottish loch that was stocked say 100 years ago.

I certainly do no agree with the illegal movement of Pike that has happened up here, however, I would also say that we are on a big island. Pike are part of the natural species of that island and so I find the argument that they are not indigenous not as clear cut as some would have us believe.

Of course, the trout of New Zealand have absolutely no right to be there, if we take a robust stance. But as you say, where is the line drawn?

I think the fish stocks and wildlife of Scotland are under far more threat from politicians, industry, people and climate change than from "invasive" species.

I would even go as far as saying the mass stocking of  trout be they Brown or Rainbow into waters to form a "prolific fishery" is a bad thing. Loch Saugh is a reasonable example of that. 30 years ago I used to catch the most beautiful wild brownies there, in more recent times those natural fish have been replaced with tubby brownies that are no where near "natural" and have most probably wiped out the natural genes that existed in the loch fro the past 200 years.

Can't remember the last time a rhododendron ate a trout or attacked a passer by ;) 

Bob Mitchell

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #8 on: 26/11/2018 at 09:54 »
Just wondering what type of people inhabit this world now. An article this morning in the Herald about people in tears because someone poisoned a few lions.  Penguins  stuck in the snow.  Goosanders to be preserved along with beavers. The rivers do not matter any more ?/
Bob.

Rob Brownfield

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #9 on: 26/11/2018 at 10:58 »
Just wondering what type of people inhabit this world now. An article this morning in the Herald about people in tears because someone poisoned a few lions.  Penguins  stuck in the snow.  Goosanders to be preserved along with beavers. The rivers do not matter any more ?/
Bob.

Countryfile did what I consider a very dangerous piece on fish yesterday. They had an "expert" scientist on stating fish do feel pain and that the fishing industry have to recognise this.

Whilst I totally agree that any fish caught on a trawler should be dispatched rather than just placed in ice slurry where they die slowly, the implication was that as fish feel pain, people should be more concerned for the fishes welfare and stop buying "trawled" fish.

He stated that there was scientific proof, but did not reveal it, as well as trying to "humanise" fish, suggesting they have feelings and can be "afraid".

Am I the only person to have caught fish with huge stab holes through them, chunks missing or severe cuts? If a fish feels pain in the same way we do, how come they are not writing around in agony, but instead, feeding normally?

The report finished with the reporter visiting a "humane" trout farm in the Scottish borders where fish are killed via a stun system and a vacuum pipe. Despite the farm being fed by a river and large numbers of trout being shown in a pond, the operator repeated 3 times that they were RSPCA approved.

The RSPCA does not have the power to prosecute in Scotland, it cannot enforce any law, it cannot make spot checks and it cannot enter a premises to inspect an animal/fish without written authority from a Scottish Court. All the approval does is state that a fish farm has followed "guidelines". They are not laws or rules, simple guidelines that  are voluntary.

So, having RSPCA accreditation is a little like being a member of the Luxemburg Lifeboat Society or the Dutch Mountain Rescue...sounds good on the face of it, but dig deeper and you will see it serves no purpose at all.

Mike Barrio

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #10 on: 26/11/2018 at 18:04 »
Quote
having RSPCA accreditation is a little like being a member of the Luxemburg Lifeboat Society or the Dutch Mountain Rescue

 :z4  :z4  :z4

Hamish Young

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #11 on: 26/11/2018 at 18:56 »
So, having RSPCA accreditation is a little like being a member of the Luxemburg Lifeboat Society or the Dutch Mountain Rescue...sounds good on the face of it, but dig deeper and you will see it serves no purpose at all.
Now that's actually quite funny  :z4

Euan Innes

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #12 on: 26/11/2018 at 19:07 »
I agree with you totally about the Countryfile piece Rob. No proof was forthcoming, which should have been fully explained in such a huge statement. However, that is the BBC way. Experts in this and that and no proof. Did you also notice that the salmon farning issues were glossed over and even praised for there humane efforts. No mention of the pollution, the death of wild stock etc etc.

I was also incensed about another nail in the coffin off our beleaguered fishing fleet. Let's put expensive electric stun machines in  a water soaked room on a rolling ship and be safe! Idiots! Yes they should be dispatched in a better way but that is just madness.

Countryfile would not be Countryfile without Tom Heep giving the doom and gloom piece every week, a piece that is usually inaccurate or just plain scaremongering.
I don't watch it much any more.

Euan

Mike Barrio

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #13 on: 26/11/2018 at 19:31 »
I used to really enjoy Countryfile ...... but must confess that I find it very hard to watch nowadays ZX2

Derek Roxborough

Re: One step forward.... several steps back
« Reply #14 on: 26/11/2018 at 21:34 »
I thought it was called "Adams Farm"? Derek Roxborough

 




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