Fishing The Fly Forum, based in Aberdeenshire,  Scotland

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 23:29:26 PM »
No Hamish they are a power unto theirselves,  do any of them have any salmon fishing experience? I doubt it they rely on the returns from the rivers  but they may not be accurate, so you are stuck with them, for better or worse, I noted the Quotation from G H Nall , he did a lot of work on Loch Maree with William Menzies, I have Trout & Sea Trout by Menzies with findings by Nall,   :z18  Derek Roxborough

Rob Brownfield

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 08:39:30 AM »
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?

The same way as many Scottish government "departments" calculate things. You take evidence from dubious sources and present it as fact. and repeat, repeat, repeat until people believe you.

At best, catch returns give a very loose indication of what's being caught. With fewer anglers you get a lower catch return, with more anglers, a higher catch return (in general).  It is not rocket science...but it does appear to be used as "factual" science by the Scottish Government.

Add into the equation of weather conditions making rivers unfishable for periods of time, people not reporting catches, fish being caught and returned more than once, people claiming Kelts in catch returns, fish smaller than 1lb not needing to be recorded...you soon see that a more accurate way of recording the number of fish in a river is to post a notice on the river bank inviting them to afternoon tea and then counting how many turn up!

I know it is not easy, I know we are talking about something that is hard to spot in its natural surroundings and that moves up and down the river making counting even harder, but to present as "fact" some of the findings is just wrong.

Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Ivor Duffus

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 09:27:42 AM »
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?


 How can they evaluate rivers in there current state with no back end run  :z8 :z8.

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 10:33:51 AM »
I hate to say it but i think they got it right for the Aberdeenshire Don. The numbers of fish in the river have been going down and down...

I think they have it wrong for the nairn as when you 'marry' Cat 1 status for next year with the 'fill your boots' number of salmon you are allowed to keep i dont think it does anyone any favours....

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 22:51:03 PM »
Marine Scotland were asked recently," What would be the penalty for taking a salmon from a Cat 3 river?,"
 the answer was " we will have to get back to you" you would think they would have some Idea ? Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 07:55:52 AM »
I'm reasonably determined to chase this up with my MSP. It's not because I have any particular need or desire to knock the occasional silver tourist on the head, far from it, but the apparent incompetence of those with the designated authority to administer the conservation measures is palpable in my eyes. This breeds resentment and distrust, at a time when neither is at all helpful, within the angling community. Time they were taken to task.
:X1
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 08:53:09 AM »
Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....

Peter Davidson

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 20:33:32 PM »
Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....
And the evidence for the above is???????????????????????
That'll be under the same criteria as the SG should, according to this thread, be applying to the classification of salmon rivers.


James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 22:29:18 PM »
Hi  Peter, you think about the jobs wild salmon fishing supports say for people traveling to Scotland for a few days fishing. They drive up ( petrol bought on route) , eat in restaurants, drink in bars, buy stuff at local tacklehops, stay in hotels. They have a gillie and maybe a guide. There are bailiffs. Without the revenue estates would suffer affecting the other estate workers...All of the above supports a lot of jobs.  Money that stays in the community and helps support it.  Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?

Peter Davidson

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 15:58:58 PM »
Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?

It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 09:11:56 AM »
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.

As is always the way, this thread has moved across a spectrum of issues that impact - or are perceived to impact - on the original subject which is Marine Scotland's (apparent) unwillingness to engage with its stakeholders. That needs to be fully addressed.

When it comes to the fish farming debate I have always stated (not necessarily in these words, but the same message) that in its current form it is incredibly environmentally destructive and that alternate methods of farming needed to be explored in order for the industry to remain.  Those technologies (largely pump ashore as the alternate) have actually existed for 40 years so it's good to hear that this is now being more fully explored. But related though it is, it's a separate discussion.

As fas as the bit of the post that I've quoted Peter, I have never known you to stop engaging in debate when you have an informed position and something to say. So you should not stop adding to the discussion, you're not wasting time, and by and large most folk are pretty rational souls whose opinions are open to change with informed discussion based on facts.

Never give up :! Never surrender :!

H :cool:
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2017, 16:51:00 PM »
It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.
   Now Peter , here's me wondering who this Mr Roxburgh is, then I thought he may be referring to me, I might think about getting you off for bad spelling , you must remember I worked in fish farming and gillying , and 15 years inshore fishing , I was a founder member of the association that you eventually worked for, I gave up howling a long time ago, just remember that you aren't the only one with experience of the fields you mention, Oh, I also worked in tourism  working for SNH in the information centre, after 48 years living and working here , I probably have as much right as you , to have an opinion,
salmon farming was, at the beginning a saviour to a lot of local communities , but, as I can add up, there wasn't the number  of people working in fish farming as was bandied about, even with 20 people per site through out Scotland it doesn't come to the numbers given by some, remember I visited most of these sites delivering smolts up to Shetland and the outer isles and down to Loch Fyne , now  a lot of these sites have cut back on personnel by as much as 60%, so only valuable to the People who actually work there,
as for Gillying, I know it was seasonal , but the anglers that came brought families and they went out into the country side and spent money locally, so the money went round. Now there are few anglers coming to the likes of the Loch Maree Hotel, so these places are struggling, as well as the fish the anglers came for,  As I mentioned previously in a post, we had seals, Poachers , etc. but we still had fish to catch, until the advent of upper loch Salmon farming then it went down hill, notice Peter, I am not Howling just stating a few facts as I  have seen them ,now my rant is over ,  just spell my name right the next time you make a criticism,  cheers Derek ROXBOROUGH  :X2

Ivor Duffus

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2017, 19:28:24 PM »
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2017, 19:54:16 PM »
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.
    sounds Like a nice Idea , but what happens to the effluent, the hatchery I worked for had an Industrial effluent discharge consent about the same as a small town, there are a lot of solids in the effluent ,when the uneaten feed is discharged, plus fish faeces, Ok no sea lice,a big plus, but a build up of solids at the outlet may pose other problems, a deepwater system away from sea lochs with  a reasonable movement of water may also be another way forward, every thing flushed away with the current  :z13  Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2017, 20:00:21 PM »
Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.

Well yes... but sadly mostly no  :z6 Other than the clean up operation that we can't rely on nature to sort out for us don't forget that something like three quarters of all UK smolt production is in cages across the lochs of Scotland. Before that, and as Derek has observed, even the well run hatcheries (producing pre-smolts) with decent settlement systems aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
 So even if the pump ashore contained salmon farms work, we still have another element to be resolved surrounding the production of Smolts.
With that addressed ensuring that the pump ashore Salmon farms have decent settlement ponds and waste treatment systems will be the next thing... and so on.
It's not that my glass is half empty - genuinely, news that pump ashore salmon farms are (at last :!) becoming a reality means my glass is half full - but we can't forget the damage that smolt production is having on a separate part of the ecosystem and it will be one of the next battles.

:z10
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

 




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