Fishing The Fly Forum, based in Aberdeenshire,  Scotland

Hamish Young

Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« on: November 29, 2017, 21:32:37 PM »
If anyone can come up with an answer to how the decisions made regarding the grading of some waters in 2018 by Marine Scotland can be explained I'd really like to hear it. Locally the Beauly DSFB and the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust have yet to get a response to numerous emails and formal letter correspondence requesting an explanation. They've been ignored and that's just not on.

I think the reclassification of many waters is a crock of sh!t but I'm maybe missing something. Don't get me wrong, I've not killed a Salmon I've caught for many years (maybe the last one was on the Thurso with Euan a long time ago) as I prefer to see them swim off - but I do resent the actions being taken by Marine Scotland that are likely to impact on more than just the club I'm a member of as they make no sense to me or anyone else I've spoken to.

The Scottish Government must be (I hope) thinking about extending the 'support for angling clubs' beyond the two year cycle announced this year - if they're not then many a club will be in the sh!t.

:mad
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Bob Mitchell

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 15:31:32 PM »
Do not know how they can change a river from a cat.2 to a cat.3. during the season. Marine Scotland have returns from all Scottish rivers for many years past and should know how they are preforming.
Bob.

Rob Brownfield

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 15:43:20 PM »
No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....
Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 16:54:19 PM »
But what ever you do Don't mention Salmon farming,  :z8 Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 18:13:20 PM »
Salmon farming is not one of my favourite things.... you might even say I have a 'bee in my bunnet' about it.... or that it 'rips my knitting'.... or 'really boils my p!ss'.

But, in this instance, Salmon farming is an entirely separate issue. I take the point that it needs to be dealt with, but the grading of rivers by Marine Scotland is about as kosher as Salmon farms reaching RSPCA 'assured' status.

Each is ridiculous and each warrants distinct investigation.

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Peter Davidson

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 20:09:18 PM »
No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....
This seems an excellent and authentic description of most governments these days. Gold star to Rob and he should be elected as the Forum Political analyst

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 21:54:53 PM »
after attending one of the Meetings over the wild fish reforms   we were asked what did we think   would be a  way forward , BUT whatever you do don't mention fish farming as that is historical, there was a guy from marine Scotland at the meeting . what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,

Euan Innes

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 22:17:32 PM »
The problem is guv'ment, Scottish or otherwise.
If you can keep those funding you happy, those voting for you in certain areas happy whilst all those around them are suffering, then you my son, are an MSP.
No one has the balls to call total C&R, except 90% of the salmon fishermen. There are still a reducing number of salmon anglers that need to kill, despite the low numbers, ghillies included.
I have listened to a lot of Aprils podcasts on that mind numbing commute recently and I now have a very good picture of how Canada and America have treated the same issues, and almost screwed it all up. Hatchery fails, indiscriminate killing, wrong reasons for introducing new breed stocks and so on, and we seem to be going the same way.
My views might be a bit extreme these days and for that you can thank Dermot Wilson for introducing me to C&R.  There are fewer fish in Scottish rivers and fewer anglers going for them. The experience has not changed, the locations have not changed so those need protecting, as do the fish.
The categories make no sense at all to me. Just stop killing fish, let them spawn and help them all we can and they might come back. If we can do that and the numbers are still in decline, then the fault lies elsewhere and certainly NOT with the salmon anglers.
I might be a bit tunnel visioned but I do love the salmon. Shame our "leaders" and experts don't.
A-holes..... :mad :mad :mad

 :z1
Continuing to let fish go, whatever the species, since 2005.
Living with deep, full breaths is the way of the trout. Fish, it seems, are the ultimate teachers in breathing.
RC Cone

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 23:41:53 PM »
what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,
No, sorry Derek but I can't accept that as an axiom.

The greatest blight on our landscape and certainly the cause of the almost total destruction of the West Coast Sea Trout populations is Salmon farming - agreed.

However, nationally (in Scotland) the impact of the farmed Salmon is smaller in 'Salmon' population terms than you might believe. There are a greater number of contributive factors - mostly man made or as a direct result of our actions - which impact on the broader bio-diversity and the thing to remember is the impact of Salmon farming is considerably less (almost negligible, in fact) on the East coast.
That does not mean that the farming of Salmon isn't part of the problem (without dispute it is) but it is not the biggest influence.

Whatever the 'causative agents' in the ups and downs of our salmonid populations it remains that the calculations used to determine river categorisation are beyond my comprehension and, apparently, beyond explanation by Marine Scotland to their stakeholders.

This is most vexing.

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Bob Mitchell

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 09:25:56 AM »
Salmon farming has increased as the numbers of wild salmon have decreased so where is the problem. ??
Looking at my river it is surprising that any fish survive to get to the sea.
 Banks falling in have killed off the clean spawning  gravel with the loss of vast amounts of fly life such as March Browns/Large dark olives/Yellow sallys and many more. The river is getting shallower which means it heats up more in summer? Goosanders and there friends are eating everything they can. Sewage is coming in which amongst other things encourages blanket weed. Beavers are felling trees that are falling in the river and causing further damage to the banks.Freshwater lice are having a field day in the warmer water and that is only the start.
I will keep taking the odd fish for the table as long as I am allowed until some other effort is made to sort out some of these problems.
Bob.

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 13:55:22 PM »
It remains the case that Marine Scotland have yet to give any reasons for their new conservation measures.

It also remains the case that  - as is always the way - that the reasons for the decline in the populations of our anadromous salmonids will be the cause of much disagreement  :wink
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 20:42:45 PM »
  since the end of the last war , what would be the major influence on Migratory fish east and west, what has happened ( Apart from Global warming) that would have an effect on these species, we had coastal netting and poaching yet we still had  sufficient stocks to support both sport and commercial fishing, I worked on a bag net station  with an average catch of over 2,400 fish , the Achiltiebuie bag nets had 3 times that, the Clachtol Bag nets had over 2,000 for the season , yet all the well known rivers had decent stocks of returning fish, so what do you think happened Hamish? what other problems could there be? even the seals didn't have this effect ,  Derek   Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 08:51:11 AM »
Of course anything I suggest is my opinion...

Following the Second World War a discernable and quantifiable (where accurate catch returns were being made) decline in the stocks of Salmon all around the North Atlantic 'population base' was noted. Although fish continued to be caught the trend was definitely downward and particularly in those rivers formerly blessed with populations of Springers.
Indeed I recall having the chat with the old skipper I worked with in the late 80s who ran a bag netting station on Ardnamurchan in Kentra Bay and we spent an interesting Saturday pouring over his records as he was very clear on there being a definite 8 year cycle in fish populations/numbers - but I digress. His records showed a downward turn from around the late '40s (when his Dad had run the nets) compared to the pre-war period. Of course, there was no Salmon farming then.
 
Unquestionably there are other activities where in an effort to control or profit from nature we have had an effect on fish populations (Salmon included) across every element of their life-cycle.  In Scotland the rapid expansion of hydro electric schemes in the post-war without adequate (even today) fish passes or concern for water flow led to the loss of vast amounts of spawning grounds and, I suspect, the extinction of several strains.

Post war afforestation has also contributed to habitat loss and has a continued effect in terms of acid 'wash' through fish habitat throughout the Highlands.

Then we come to one of the most significant factors.
In the 1950s the Salmon feeding grounds around Greenland and the Faroe Islands were discovered.  For me the exploitation of these grounds by fishermen is unquestionably the single largest impact on Salmon populations across the North Atlantic area commercial fishing industry was established. There was no 'sustainable management' and the sea gave up huge numbers of fish until there was little to catch any more.

All of the above are significant enough, but the coup de grāce in many places (Scotland included) might be considered as the development of coastal Salmon farming since the 1980's.

Be under no illusion, I am no fan of Salmon farming in its current form. I do consider it to be a significant contributor to the loss of  Sea Trout (in particular) and  Salmon populations across the West coast - but for me it is a contributing factor rather than the most single damaging contributor.

More to say but I'm late for work!

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 16:07:57 PM »
have to agree with you about the Cyclical event Graphs for loch Maree show this , catching and fishing for spawning fish at the latter part of the year played its part in this, the fishing effort then diminished, until some sort of recovery took place, and then the regulars returned , and the cycle started again, the Salmon farm in loch ewe started in 1985 at a low period in the cycle  there was no recovery, from a seasonal average of over 2000 to less than 300 in 3 years, now it's probably a lot less, but the fishers aren't there
either . there was a salmon farm at Munlochy bay for while , but it wasn't a success, as I said we had poachers and bag nets and a viable sport fishery , this all went down hill when salmon farms started, perhaps the Atlantic Salmon trust should have bought out the Farms ?  :z12 Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 19:04:09 PM »
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

 




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