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Mike Barrio

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Derek Roxborough

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 21:40:19 PM »
Nothing new there. they were introduced into Russia in the Baring sea area, we used to get odd ones in the Bag nets, in the 70's, I think they  were brought in in the  50's ,Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 06:12:28 AM »
Despite the way some of the reporting has been done I don't think it's necessarily a question of it being anything new -  to us anglers anyway.
What makes this season notable is the number of these fish that have been caught which seems to be far higher than previously recorded.
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Colin Sunley

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 22:18:28 PM »
But is this bad thing for the Scottish river systems. There are those on the Ness Distict who want to kill them all. Kill first ask questions later. Evidence seems to suggest that pose no threat. I personaly like the idea of two breads of fish to be caught in the rivers it can only be good for the fishing industry.

Hamish Young

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 09:19:03 AM »
As Derek has observed it's nothing new having 'exotic' visitors, but I'm not sure I welcome their presence in the long term.

Following their introduction in the Soviet era (in part to create a viable fishing community) these fish now have naturalised populations in the Barents Sea. Close to home there are now small but viable populations in Norway and gradually there is evidence appearing that these populations are spreading.
Not unreasonably I might suggest that it's like the spread of Brown Trout across the British Empire where, after being introduced, the Brownie demonstrated an almost unrivalled ability to adapt incredibly successfully to new environments and then expand into neighbouring systems. You only have to look at some of the more interesting adventures available to you in the southern hemisphere where there were no native Salmo species until we introduced them to know that the potential is there..... are they an invasive species there :? Yes, but there again they are of such economic importance for sport fishing and tourism that they're not necessarily considered in those terms.

Do we really want a repeat of that in the UK :?

Well, what concerns me more this year is the numbers of these fish that have entered our rivers. If we are catching them there are far more of them - it's that simple IMHO. They might (eventually) be able to establish self-sustaining populations in the UK and we already know that there can be dire consequences on native species by introducing a 'radical element' to an environment.
Although the self-sustaining populations of these invasive Salmon species have yet to take hold in the UK (as far as we know) there is a precedent in the UK for non-native North America species establishing a population. The Rainbow Trout has spawned successfully in rivers and perhaps the most successful or renowned population are the Rainbows of the River Wye in Derbyshire.

Whilst the Rainbow and the Brown co-exist there, the Atlantic and Pacific Salmon are not found naturally together. It follows that you cannot have an invasive Salmon species establishing themselves without there being an impact on the native species and biodiversity, for example the loss of all Spring fish as their spawning area gets taken over, or maybe an entire tributary becoming home to the invasive species etc.

Do we need another species to 'spice things up' for the rod angler :?  Well, we used to have the Sea Trout. We should probably do more to nurture them first :!

Is there evidence to suggest that these 'aliens' pose no threat :?

Hmmm....personally I think not. I'd say the evidence that they are a serious threat is there for us all to see if we chose to look. So these fish are a very real threat in my book and I am very firmly in the camp of 'knock them on the head first and ask questions later'.

H
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 15:52:20 PM by Hamish Young »
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Rob Brownfield

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2017, 08:51:03 AM »
There must be some "facts" out there on the "mixing" of Atlantic and Pacific Salmon because BC heavily farm Atlantic Salmon and they must suffer the same amount of escapees and Atlantics running West coast Canadian rivers?

I know they cannot interbreed, which is a saving grace.

My greatest fear is that "if" they become established, and they run in the numbers they do else where...then we are in for a bit of an environmental disaster from pollution. The Canadians have many scavengers on their river systems, from Bears to Sturgeon, Catfish to Pike, Crayfish to Eagles. They also have a rather horrible version of the Lamprey that feasts on rotting flesh. These help remove the carcasses from the system.

However, and I know this will be a bit controversial, but if the whole Global Warming theory is true, then preserving Atlantic Salmon may become completely futile. Maybe now is the time to look into what our rivers could be stocked with in 50 years time "if "the salmon are a dying species due to environmental factors beyond our control?
Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Dave Felce

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2017, 09:10:17 AM »
In the grand scheme of things, this is all very short term. It’s really just evolution in action.  Presumably the way salmon got into any rivers in the first place would be by going up a different one, then getting established. I seem to recall there is a tradition of seeding tributaries by indigenous peoples in Canada… Obviously the human factor is a consideration, but then we’re arguably one of the most invasive species the world has ever seen so this is just a natural adaption to our somewhat skewed attempts to influence nature for our own ends. If we were to find atlantic salmon spawning in previously “non-salmon” rivers we’d all be celebrating…..
If people don't occasionally walk away from you shaking their heads, you're probably doing something wrong - John Gierach

Ali Mcewan

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2017, 15:18:40 PM »
Very short term🤔 I'm not so sure..
Finding a native salmon in a U.K. River for the first time, can not be compared to a fish from a different ocean entering U.K. Waters in numbers..

Hamish Young

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 17:18:49 PM »
I don't really see these fish as being representative of evolution in action to be honest.

Although I'd agree with the supposition that evolution (which strikes me as being firmly anthropogenic in nature today) is a second by second 'thing' which over a life time of one person on this planet we might not fully appreciate, in this instance the runs of these fish was by accident rather than intent.... unless those cunning Soviets were planning on sending killer Salmon to NATO counties during the Cold War... of course  :z7

These are not fish to be encouraged in our waters at this time at least.

More later - domestic crisis.....

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Derek Roxborough

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2017, 21:51:42 PM »
Very short term🤔 I'm not so sure..
Finding a native salmon in a U.K. River for the first time, can not be compared to a fish from a different ocean entering U.K. Waters in numbers..
    Like it or not these fish are in our ocean now thanks to the Russians, Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 07:16:08 AM »
I spoke with the chaps from the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust last weekend - seems that the redds of the Pink Salmon on the Ness do indeed contain plenty of viable eyed ova. So at this stage, they are developing successfully. More detail on their Facebook page.

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

Rob Brownfield

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 08:27:17 AM »
My Boss was down fishing the Pump House on the Dee last night and he was describing seeing several dark "diamond" shaped fish, more like a big perch in shape, but about 6-7lbs in weight. I showed him a photo of a male Pink Salmon in spawning colours with the hump and he swears blind that's what he was seeing. Bloody horrible looking fish!



Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Derek Roxborough

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2017, 20:15:44 PM »
they have spawned on the Ness, and eyed ova have been taken  to a hatchery some where, welcome another alien species ? Derek Roxborough

Bob Mitchell

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2017, 16:28:39 PM »
Could be that there spawn would be a welcome food for our parr and browns. Spawning in our summers [not meant as a joke?] they should not damage the Atlantics spawning. Watching some of the nature programs there dead bodies are what keep the creepy crawlies fed. Better feeding than planting willows and alders so there leaves fall in the river for food.
Bob.

Hamish Young

Re: STV News - Invasive Pacific Salmon Caught In Scots Rivers
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 06:58:05 AM »
It's worth noting that the life cycle of certain Pacific salmon species - including Pinks - is crucially different to their Atlantic 'cousins' in one key stage.

Conventional knowledge about the life cycle of Pinks says that on absorption of the egg sac (completing the alevin stage) Pink Salmon fry are already 'silver smolts' and will directly migrate to coastal/estuarine waters to feed up before heading to more offshore feeding grounds. Eighteen months later they will return to spawn.

So, as juveniles, they spend considerably less time (as in years less) in freshwater as parr. They miss that stage and bugger off to sea. This is conventional knowledge but Pinks have shown themselves to be a highly adaptable species and they may adapt to a different life cycle as fry due to the river conditions. I know the guys at the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust are doing lots of good work on this as they are an invasive species and understanding how they adapt to local conditions being key to dealing with the issue of their presence.

For sure the Pink Salmon smolts would be fine fayre for Sea Trout in coastal waters.

H
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience ;)

 




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