[benbryant]

A study carried out by Schill et al. 1997. In to the effects of barbed and barbless hooks on fish mortlity in catch and release trout, found there was no significance between the two, "Managers proposing new special regulations to the angling public should consider the social costs of implementing barbed hook restrictions that produce no demonstrable biological gain". The paper poses many questions, i have never been a fan of barbed hooks, i believe however it maybe down to the way a hook is removed from the mouth of a fish by the angler that may do the damage, not the hook it's self.

Ben.

[Iain Goolager]

Ben,
It's hard to believe that, although there may not be any significance from a mortality standpoint between using barbed and barbless hooks, that there is no difference in the physical damage & subsequent trauma caused when the hooks are being removed - note that this is generalising as sometimes the hook falls out no problem. I'm speaking from seeing fish have their scissors torn from people trying to remove large (typically lures) barbed hooks. 
 That said I had a trip not so long ago that when I had a bugger of a job removing a size 14 barbless (not debarbed) hook - the fish had the point firmly inserted in the hard boney nib of the snout.
I think that although there have been various catch and release methods stated in the posts the general opinion seems to be that fish preservation is having the correct attitude rather than being a definiative art.

Question: - how well is the policy of fishing barbless once ones bag limit is reached adhered to or even policed? This would be a positive step in people realising that a barbless hook does not instantly mean a lost fish.

Question: - how many people use barbless hooks when fly fishing for Broonies on a river? I ask because how often do you get a day when parr and the like commit hari kari on your fly & these hooks appear even more menacing when in a wee mouth.

I'd like to think that I treat every fish respectfully - after all I spend a wad of cash & most of my free time (well did until having a wee boy) on my prefered sport so why damage the thing that makes it all worthwhile!?

Unfortunately I do have moments where fish snap off (don't try to hand release a large trout from a boat - sorry Mike!) but fortunately these are very few and far between and I'm constantly learning.


Thanks for listening!

Iain

[Rob Brownfield]

Ben and Iain,
Many fisheries down south are now banning BARBLESS hooks. It has been found that on many fish, but mainly Carp, Tench, Bream, Chub and Barbel that barbless hooks can tear through the flesh on a hard fight. The barbed hook holds in one position far better and resists tearing during the twists of a fight.

Trout are interesting as there mouths are a little different in that they have a hard outer but relatively soft inner. Certainly, for Pike, I use Barbless due to the boney nature of the jaw and little risk of tearing.

Where barbless do come into there own is if a fish is deeply hooked, for very obvious reasons. I have used both barbed, barbless and de-barbed hooks for trout and I have found no difference at all to tell the truth...but then I only use very small hooks for trout. A large, rank barb on a size 2 long shank lure hook is always going to be more of a problem.

One thing that has always concerned me was the use of barbes doubles and trebles on Salmon rivers when Parr have been a problem. Salmon hooks tend to have a rather large barb and times that by two or three and you potentially have an item that could seriously damage a Parr even if the angler was careful. Certain times of the year I would like to see single, barbless hooks for salmon on the rivers to protect the Parr.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi folks

I'm a great believer in barbless or de-barbed hooks, hence Haddo is barbless or de-barbed flies at all times. IMHO anglers hook more fish ( less misses ) and I do not think that they lose more fish. They certainly help when it comes to releasing fish in the net.

The biggest bonus of fishing barbless or de-barbed flies is that they are so much easier to take out of your own face, fingers, neck etc etc ........... Before starting at the fishery, I would never have imagined that so many folk hook themselves

Best wishes
Mike

[ANDREW BEBBINGTON]

Agree with Mike on the flies being debarbed / barbless, since changing to barbless or debarbed hooks in spring there has been no noticable diferance in catches at pitfour. I personally prefer barbless as debarbing can still snag in to a fish.

As for policeing this it is not the easiest, all you can do as a fishery manager is remind people of the policy, you can not really insist that someone debarbs all there flies before you let them on your water, you have to have some trust in your customers.

When it comes to small fish i would of said barbless hooks are much easier to remove for a smaller mouth,

as rob says barbless hooks are easier to remove when fish are deeped hooks, and as mike says they are far more easier to remove from youself than a barbed hook saw a fly in a eyebrow a couple of weeks ago (which was not debarbed) and the guy ended up headed for a+e were a barbless hook would of just sliped out easy.

Why is it that barbless flies are so much harder to get hold off than barbed ones 

andrew

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Andrew

Yes, most folk don't realise just how painful a barbed hook can be to remove from oneself and how difficult

Most seem to think that it will happen to someone else, or is just a problem for beginners

I have seen some very experienced anglers hooking themselves, or worse still somebody else

I have approached a good number of the major fly companies and asked for barbless flies ......... they are not interested Some make a few patterns available at a premium price this is rubbish

It should not cost any more to produce a barbless hook or to supply flies tied on them They are not interested because it would mean doubling their range and of course their stockholding

  There is certainly room for at least one supplier to go barbless only

It appears that even as a trade customer, I still do not have the "clout" to make them sit down and put some serious thought in to this

I would love to see an angler campaign on this Many of you visit various forums ........ would it be possible to spread the word and do a mass sending of "letters" to all the magazines asking for barbless flies?

What do you think folks

Best wishes
Mike

[Peter McCallum]

I was told a number of years ago by no less than the late Alan Bramley of partridge fame that the barb was an important part of the hook making process. The bend was formed by holding the hook barb in a notch in the former and bending the hook wire round the former to make the bend, then the eye was formed. The point being that a barbless hook former had to be more complicated to hold the hook onto the former.

Peter

[Mike Barrio]

That's interesting Peter, I didn't know that

But there are barbless hooks available on the market and some are very good ........ so once the former is made, I would have thought that they could produce hooks in large enough numbers to cost the same as barbed, or even if they were only slightly dearer, the flies could cost more or less the same within reason?

Best wishes
Mike

[ANDREW BEBBINGTON]

Yes it can be painfull to have a hook sink into yourself been there done that, the other one i have seen is hooks in the tounge with folk holding a fly on there lip while doing something else or while tying it on to the line and getting it bedded in

What barbless hooks i have got hold of in the past have always been about the same price and prob less than 1p a hook, so i can not see a reason why barbless flies should not be the same price.

i have had the same problem with the fly companies they tell me that barbless flies are dearer because they pay more for the hook as they order then in smaller amounts there is less discount for bulk buying,

What i find odd is that there is such a wide range of shapes and sizes of coarse fishing hooks available with them mainly being barbless and cheaper than the same hooks in barbed, suppose its the opposite of fly hooks as there is less demand for the barbed versions.

andrew

[Rob Brownfield]

It is definately a unique position with UK Game anglers. My self and an associate (McFluffchucker...his shop is on E-bay) tie Pike flies for customers and we never tie barbed ones, as no one would actually buy them! My dutch friend who runs a successful guiding service fly fishing over in Holland/Germany will only buy barbless flies or tie his own patterns on barbless and many of the patterns I see in the American fly fishing mags I get have trout flies, especially dries, tied on barbless.

soooooo, someone out there is selling the hooks and making the flies, just not in the UK. My partner brought a heap of flies back from the States for me, and she sat there while the guy in the shop tied them for her. They cost a little more but they are stunningly dressed...on barbless hooks.

I would love to see a survey in the Trout mags to see what peoples opinions are. I think there weill be a distinct split between anglers that only or have only fished for trout and anglers that have come from a coarse background or also fish regularly for coarse fish.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Rob

Yes, game anglers are the same ......... many "self employed type" suppliers tie on barbless, folk tying in shops often use barbless and most folk that tie their own that I know, use barbless too

We were talking about "the big guns", the main distributors to shops and fisheries etc. They source their product from overseas in huge bulk orders and then wholesale throughout the UK, or have online shops and sell flies at very competitive prices. They have a fairly strong hold of the market and are not keen to double their stock holding by duplicating their flies on barbless hooks .......... and none of them appear to have the vision to simply swapover to barbless!

Cheers
Mike

[Rob Brownfield]

Mike,
Maybe I was not very clear...as always! 

What I was trying to say is that if a major supplier switched to barbless, the vast masses would go and buy elsewhere....I think

[Mike Barrio]

Mike,
Maybe I was not very clear...as always! 

What I was trying to say is that if a major supplier switched to barbless, the vast masses would go and buy elsewhere....I think

Hi Rob
I had understood

Yes that is quite possibly what the suppliers think ........... BUT .......... IMHO this is wrong, I am confident that the first major supplier to go barbless would in fact gain a larger customer base

I would also suggest that a high proportion of stocked fisheries would be keen to retail their flies

Best wishes
Mike

[Rob Brownfield]

Well Mike,
You supply the hooks and material, we will all tie up the flies and we can all retire by next Spring 

I just had a look at the major hook manufacturers websites (Partridge, Tiemco, Kamasan, Gamakatsu etc) and there is your answer. The range of Barbless is unbelievably limited. A large number of popular flies could not be dressed presently...but that leaves a chicken and egg situation i guess....no barbless flies without the hooks, and no hooks without the flies.

[salar35]

Many folk don't like using a net at all, but it does afford the opportunity to keep the fish under close control at the point of release. And when fishing for fresh spring salmon in particular, the mess which grounding/beaching that fish can do to its silvery scales and protective slime, is substantial..................for that form of angling, I'd recommend a suitably large and fully pre-wetted net every time. Mike, do they manufacture salmon-sized meshes in the close-mesh material which you describe, and would that narrow mesh size be practicable when trying to net a fish in a strong current?  Dave

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Dave

No, the coarse net heads that I use don't come any larger, but they do hold an 18 lb trout, so I guess they would be fine in most cases

Not sure about the narrow mesh in the current, I've only used these ones on Haddo. Kev Danby might be able to help with this as I think he uses a similar one on the Don for trout?

Best wishes
Mike

[salar35]

Thanks Mike

I even managed to snap my Whitlock salmon net on one occasion at Castle Forbes 3 when trying to manoeuvre it behind a big spring fish in a very strong bankside current. And that was with the normal knotless wide-mesh net material. (I eventually hand-tailed the fish and Sharpe's later did a first class and very cheap job on the repair). But that's a good point about potential lateral fin damage from larger meshes.  I do definitely see the benefit in using the softer narrower coarse-fishing net material.........I'll be interested to hear from others.

Dave

[Kev Danby]

Some of the specimen nets for carp, pike and barbel would be big enough but as you have pointed out the drag caused by the current makes this difficult to use (especially backing a fish into the net). I do use a coarse fish net for the trout, the net is quite shallow and a bit smaller than Mikes. The current does not seem to affect it and it will cope with double figure fish on still waters, in a current I wouldn't be comfortable with a fish of that size in a small net.

Something like this might be suitable as the mesh size is larger how robust it would be in a strong current is another matter
http://www.bosfish.co.uk/products/NETS/dw453carp.htm

http://www.harrissportsmail.com/Categories.aspx?CategoryID=2210

One disadvantage is that they don't do a large size folding net in the smaller mesh sizes.

[Mike Barrio]

Thanks Kev

Been thinking about the salmon nets ......... I think the answer might be to get a fine soft mesh replacement net ( net only, no frame ) and try fitting it to an existing good quality salmon net frame?

Best wishes
Mike

[Sandy Nelson]

I've done that before.When the knotless nets first became available, i converted a sharpes belmont.

Its fairly straightforward 

Sounds like a plan

Sandy

[Tam Greenock]

Just been watching A passion for Angling on Discovery and l dont think we should use their preferred method of catch and release, one of them actually sent his dog into The Spey to catch a brownie that he had played to death for the cameras, the dog snapped away a couple of times at the fish before getting it in its jaws, the fish was then held up for a picture then released. Now l realise that this programme is maybe 20 years old but still shocking behaviour from two pro's.

[Rob Brownfield]

Tam,
Bob and Chris are two of the most caring, passionate anglers you could ever wish to meet. That scene you talk of was very much done to play upto the cameras and i can assure you is not normal practice for Bob.

Just a side note, a mate from Blairgowrie has two black Labs and one of them takes great delite in jumping into the Ericht at Cargills leap, and extracting a salmon or too itself. These fish never have a mark on them as the Labs are trained gun dogs and have "soft mouths", to use a shooting term. I am pretty sure the trout in question was released totally unharmed. From what i remember it was shown in close up on the programme and i certainly do not remember any marks on it.

As I say, it was done for the cameras, rightly or wrongly.

[Mike Barrio]

Mike,
Have you seen the rubber mesh nets available for coarse anglers. they are based on the nets used in the salmon farming industry in Norway, but smaller micro or Minnow mesh. They have taken the Bream fishing market by storm as they remove next to no slime and shake dry afterwards, which would be great for you storing nets at the fishery. Well worth a look for the sake of your fish and of the smell in the summer 

Hi Rob

I ordered one up to see what they're like .......... I am surprised, the one that I have bought feels quite harsh and abrasive Do they go softer in the water or something?

Cheers
Mike

[Charlie]

Interesting subject, I note that out here in the colonies, down under, our fisheries are in the process of "viewing fish released" after capture with cameras and release into cages to view their recovery and so far the jury is out on best ways but you cant better wet hands and TLC, I'll post their answers when get the results, looking forward to fishing Haddo in Sept when I get over to see mum

[Mike Barrio]

Interesting subject, I note that out here in the colonies, down under, our fisheries are in the process of "viewing fish released" after capture with cameras and release into cages to view their recovery and so far the jury is out on best ways but you cant better wet hands and TLC, I'll post their answers when get the results, looking forward to fishing Haddo in Sept when I get over to see mum

Hi Charlie
Welcome to the forum

Yes, wet hands and TLC go a long way. It will be interesting to see what the results of the experiment "Down Under" produce.

I look forward to seeing you again in September
Best wishes
Mike Barrio