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Ben_D

T38 Rod Guides
« on: December 13, 2013, 07:03:47 AM »
Hi All, I posted this up on Sexyloops as there are more tournament casters on that board but, we have more rod builders on here.  Anyone got any thoughts?

Interested to get some thoughts on rod guide sizes and the effect on line flow / tangle reduction.

I'm building a T38 rod up and intend to use the following from the butt up
#16 stripper
#10 SiC single leg
#8 SiC single leg
2 x #7 SiC single leg
4x #6 SiC single leg
#6 SiC tip ring

Would there be any benefit to putting in a #12 stripper and removing one of the #7 guides with regard to allowing tangles in shooting line to come out before hitting smaller diameter guides?

From what I have read, I believe that for thin shooting line it makes sense to get the line funnelled and "organised" as soon as possible but I'm trying to weigh this up against tangles jamming up in the guides.


Cheers

Ben

Rob Brownfield

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »
Ben, I have mentioned the Fuji Concept guide sizing and spacing before, ie, more guides and smaller. This does manage line far more effectively than fewer larger rings, whether this is from a fixed spool or a multiplier.

However, with lose line laying on the ground, the initial "funneling" of the line is perhaps not as critical.

Watching slow motion casts, it is very clear that as the line comes up from the ground and through the first stripper, it very often forms a curve that rubs along the blank until it is pulled under control as it hits the second ring. So, eliminating that loop would be my priority.

My suggestion is a bit unique, but what I would do is have your 16mm stripper in the normal position, your 10mm single leg in the normal postion, but between them, stick a12-14mm stripper. So effectively you have 3 rings where normally you would have two.

The principle I am working on is that the additional stripper will control the line as it rushed up, preventing the line from rubbing the blank. This is roughly what the Concept ringing is doing too, but in a slightly different way.

Tape the rings on first and see if it works :)

Having said that, I would have 2 x cradle strippers anyway rather than one.
Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Ben_D

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 10:01:58 AM »
Would the jump from 16 - 10 not bring the line under control quickly Rob?  T-LSG's do stand offthe blank quite a way in larger sizes.  I see what you mean about the #12, worth giving it some thought.  Not sure about buying extras to tape on and play with, these things are £6 - £12 each!!

ben

Rob Brownfield

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 10:33:27 AM »
A man of your means could afford an extra ring Ben  :z18

On heavier rods I have always gone 16 - 12 - 10 but mainly because I am fishing heavy lines or shooting heads with a braided or "fly line" shooting line rather than mono. I think with a mono you would not have the same issues perhaps?

I would be interested to see how much further/shorter you would find a head went with a braided shooting line. I know you have to abide by the rules which I understand dictate a minimum shooting line diameter, but dry braid is so much lighter and limp compared to even the softest mono. I use 50lb braid when spinning, and that has a slightly higher diameter than the 10lb mono I used to use, but lures travel perhaps 10% further, more with lighter lures.

Sorry, off topic there.
Ok, I admit it, I quite like this salmon fishing lark....

Ben_D

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 12:16:41 PM »
This rod will never be fished Rob, purely a tournament rod.  The RL will likely be 8 or 10lb Amnesia which lies totally flat & limp once stretched.

The KWSG strippers have so prevented wrap ups around the guides, not had any issue with that at all on any of the rods I have built with them.   What I am trying to work out here is how best to build the rod to minimise any jam ups from a small loop or bunch of running line that has managed to pass through the stripper by.  I know the US theory on SW rods in particular is to use curtain rings on them to allow the tangle to pas out of the tip and the other would be to use the right size and spacing of rings to encourage a loose bunch of line or loop not to tangle and turn into a tightened knot. 

Cheers

Ben

Sandy Nelson

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 20:58:17 PM »
On heavier rods I have always gone 16 - 12 - 10

Me too, but probably more due to convention than any sort of in depth experimentation

The KWSG strippers have so prevented wrap ups around the guides, not had any issue with that at all on any of the rods I have built with them.  

Sounds like you have the measure of the problem already, i'd not get too hung up on using strippers, the single leg Sic's are basically strippers anyway, all the way up. As long as they size down to focus the line towards the tip then it would follow with the way i'd build up a rod.
My Experience is 1 butt ring to collect the line and then funnel it along the blank with progressively smaller rings until the tip acts like a laser pointer :z16 Smaller tip rings make a bigger positive difference with control IMHO. Nothing radical or enlightening there then :z4

Sandy

PS. whats a T38, cos it wont be the 2 seat trainer i think it is. :roll
John Geirach 1999 "Millions of trout have died of old age before i could catch them and there's not a damn thing i can do about that"

Hamish Young

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 22:18:43 PM »
PS. whats a T38, cos it wont be the 2 seat trainer i think it is. :roll

It's a rod destined to break Kev  :z4

H :cool:
“When tired at last, he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.”

Ben_D

Re: T38 Rod Guides
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 22:40:17 PM »
Hi Sandy,

I'm sort of trying to think past convention here as I'm not sure why that arrangement is the convention  :z4

T38 is a rod with an ERN of about 20ish that is used to cast a 38g HiD shooting head tied onto approx 15' of hauling line which is connected onto approx 8lb Stren.

The reason that I'm thinking about this so much is that using mono of that diameter and fish playing not being a consideration for the rod may lead to a rather unconventional ringing arrangement working out best for the job, something more like what would be used on a spinning or casting rod.

In this event (which I am not that experienced at) I have experienced two tangling issues.  One being the RL actually tying itself around the stripper leg in a knot which obviously stops the shoot dead and the other is a loop of line generally looking like an overhand loop knot jamming in the smaller guides on the way up the rod having passed through the first stripper.  The knotting around the legs is easily sorted by the K series stripper guides which do not allow a knot to tie around the legs by design.  However, I am wondering if there is any way, by balancing the lower guides, that I can encourage any tangles in the RL to undo before they hit the smaller guides where the tangle will stick. 

Also, I've looked at some Fuji video of mono or braid coming off a spinning reel and their idea is that the line should be funnelled as quickly as possible to what you describe as a laser at the tip.  This is to avoid bunching and additional friction as the line goes up through the guides on the shoot which is not something you see on a with most fly lines and their ringing concept is very different to what would be considered standard on a fly rod.

Cheers

Ben

 




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