Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Jim Eddie

RIP Nelson Mandela
« on: 05/12/2013 at 22:15 »
The world has lost one of its great Statesmen, a legend in our lifetime. RIP Nelson

 :z18

Jim

Graeme Inglis

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #1 on: 05/12/2013 at 22:20 »
So true, in an age of plastic hero's he stood head and shoulders above them.

G

Soldierpmr

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #2 on: 05/12/2013 at 22:22 »
RIP if only more people would stand by there opinions and rights and beliefs.

Noel Kelly

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #3 on: 05/12/2013 at 23:26 »
Hmmm this better not fuk up my holiday!!!! Oops sorry.... Madiba as they call him in SA has been a huge figure. I'm not really sure how I feel about him but I definitely agree he was the tata or father for an emerging nation. I really really hope SA can go forward from this to a thriving democracy but I doubt it.

gunner100

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #4 on: 06/12/2013 at 18:18 »
So sorry it might fuk your holiday.

I heard the news of Mandelas (Mandebas) death last night and I was in tears, literally. This man has brought reconciliation  to South Africa. Served only  one term as President and handed over to a younger man .

I well remember the student's Unions bars and pubs in Edinburgh in  1960's when  we sang "Free Mandela".

Terribly sorry if it fuks your holiday , but Mandelas gift to the world is more important than your holiday.

Iain Goolager

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #5 on: 06/12/2013 at 20:19 »
My grandfather fought the Reich so that we could be free, only his family and close friends shed a tear for him when he passed away

Mourn the passing of one good man on a day that I'd imagine many others did also.

Iain

Eddie Sinclair

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #6 on: 06/12/2013 at 20:33 »
Ian,
could not agree more. I have my grandfathers bayonet at home and cannot even start to understand what he went through in the war. Nelson Mandella deserves our utmost respect.

Eddie.

Iain Goolager

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #7 on: 06/12/2013 at 20:46 »
Eddie, I would believe you it it weren't for the fact that I know for sure that you are actually the result of a Victorian scientific experiment.

 :z7

Iain

Hamish Young

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #8 on: 07/12/2013 at 10:22 »
For me one of the saddest things is the shameful political posturing and association that always seems to come every time someone of 'significance' passes and how mediocre second rate politicians (so that would be most of ours then) all have to get their sound bites in. Hateful  :mad
As time passes we all lose friends, family and personal 'heroes' to the inevitable grind of time. Each have done their bit to contribute to society, some more than others but each one we lose is a loss to those who remain.
Nelson Mandela had a damn good innings and did more with his allotted time than most.
The modern South Africa that rose from the ashes of apartheid is in part his legacy and for all those people all around the world who strived for the end of apartheid in South Africa.
I'm not normally given to religious sentiment but in this instance it seems appropriate - God bless you Nelson Mandela.
Rest in peace.

H

Andrews brother

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #9 on: 07/12/2013 at 13:25 »
 It is always a shame when someone dies, he seemed to be a good president.
 However, what everybody seems to be glossing over is the fact that he got his time in jail for being a Terrorist!
 People are too quick to blame those who point out the blindingly obvious, but, when this man planted bombs, he didn't know or care who they killed.
 Sorry that the man is dead but not the terrorist.

Jim Eddie

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #10 on: 07/12/2013 at 14:01 »
It is always a shame when someone dies, he seemed to be a good president.
 However, what everybody seems to be glossing over is the fact that he got his time in jail for being a Terrorist!
 People are too quick to blame those who point out the blindingly obvious, but, when this man planted bombs, he didn't know or care who they killed.
 Sorry that the man is dead but not the terrorist.

He was convicted of Conspiracy to Overthrow the Government not Terrorism.

 :z18

Jim

Noel Kelly

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #11 on: 08/12/2013 at 22:19 »
So sorry it might fuk your holiday.

I heard the news of Mandelas (Mandebas) death last night and I was in tears, literally. This man has brought reconciliation  to South Africa. Served only  one term as President and handed over to a younger man .

I well remember the student's Unions bars and pubs in Edinburgh in  1960's when  we sang "Free Mandela".

Terribly sorry if it fuks your holiday , but Mandelas gift to the world is more important than your holiday.


Gunner100 you may have taken my post a bit 2 seriously. I hope you're feeling a bit better now.

gunner100

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #12 on: 10/12/2013 at 21:24 »
Yep... I am feeling a bit better after a week, thank you. I had just heard on the news of Mandela's death and had been in tears. He had been part of my life since the 1960's. I found your comment crass and insensitive , and still do, so I have refrained from quoting it.   

Rob Brownfield

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #13 on: 11/12/2013 at 08:12 »
He was convicted of Conspiracy to Overthrow the Government not Terrorism.


Hmmm...not quite.

First arrest was indeed for High Treason Against the State. An extremely serious accusation that carried the Death Penalty (as it did in the UK at the time). One charge was dropped and the remaining charges were changed to High Treason by advocating the use of violence against the state. This charge was brought under Martial Law that had been applied during severe rioting and looting that was taking place. Mandela was released when the case collapsed due to 3 of the Judges being National Party members, and the end of Martial Law.

His second arrest, and for which he served 5 years, was under the charge of Inciting Workers to Strike and with Leaving the Country without Permission.

His third arrest lead to a charge of four counts of Sabotage against the State and Conspiricy to Violently Overthrow the Government, what we would term Terrorism these days.

He also set up and headed the MK (Spear of the Nation), the armed wing of the ANC
He later admitted to 156 acts of sabotage taking place under his command.
He was in command of the MK during their bombing campaign in which cinemas, shopping malls, train stations, court rooms and so on were bombed, killing hundreds and maiming many many more, both black and white (I hate those terms) and he admitted he knew loss of life was taking place.
He approached the Chinese for weapons in a communist attempt to take power through violence
He accepted $60 million from Gaddafi and the Indonesian President (cant remember his name now) for weapons and training
He went to Ethiopia and trained in guerilla warfare for 2 months (it was meant to be 12 months)

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.........

Jim Eddie

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #14 on: 11/12/2013 at 08:36 »

Hmmm...not quite.

First arrest was indeed for High Treason Against the State. An extremely serious accusation that carried the Death Penalty (as it did in the UK at the time). One charge was dropped and the remaining charges were changed to High Treason by advocating the use of violence against the state. This charge was brought under Martial Law that had been applied during severe rioting and looting that was taking place. Mandela was released when the case collapsed due to 3 of the Judges being National Party members, and the end of Martial Law.

His second arrest, and for which he served 5 years, was under the charge of Inciting Workers to Strike and with Leaving the Country without Permission.

His third arrest lead to a charge of four counts of Sabotage against the State and Conspiricy to Violently Overthrow the Government, what we would term Terrorism these days.

He also set up and headed the MK (Spear of the Nation), the armed wing of the ANC
He later admitted to 156 acts of sabotage taking place under his command.
He was in command of the MK during their bombing campaign in which cinemas, shopping malls, train stations, court rooms and so on were bombed, killing hundreds and maiming many many more, both black and white (I hate those terms) and he admitted he knew loss of life was taking place.
He approached the Chinese for weapons in a communist attempt to take power through violence
He accepted $60 million from Gaddafi and the Indonesian President (cant remember his name now) for weapons and training
He went to Ethiopia and trained in guerilla warfare for 2 months (it was meant to be 12 months)

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.........

Rob he was found not guilty on the treason charges. Were the French Resistance in WW2 terrorists ? Were the SOE who planted bombs all over occupied Europe terrorists ? Was William Wallace a terrorist ? I could go on

I do not think anyone who fights against a morally corrupt regime can be classed as a terrorist.

 :z18

jim

Rob Brownfield

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #15 on: 11/12/2013 at 09:48 »
Rob he was found not guilty on the treason charges. Were the French Resistance in WW2 terrorists ? Were the SOE who planted bombs all over occupied Europe terrorists ? Was William Wallace a terrorist ? I could go on

I do not think anyone who fights against a morally corrupt regime can be classed as a terrorist.

 :z18

jim

I dont do politics...I do do terrorism though...if that makes sense...

Were the French Resistance in WW2 terrorists?...No, they were fighting an opposing occupying army in a time of declared war. This is set out in various international laws. The aim was to sabotage and disrupt the occupying forces, not to "terrorise the civilian populations".

Were the SOE who planted bombs all over occupied Europe terrorists?....No, same reason as above. War was officially declared and they operated within international law. Same apples regarding sabotage.

Was William Wallace a terrorist ? No, he was at war. War had been declared by both sides.

A morally corrupt regime ....actually a democratically elected Government recognised by the world.

I do not agree with the sentiments of the ruling National Party back then, or the fact that only the whites (actually, thats not strictly true either) were allowed to vote, but it was an election and an internationally recognised government. Corruption (both financially and morally) is something the ANC were and are very good at! Mandela can’t be blamed directly for that culture but he can be criticized for not speaking out as senior ANC figures like Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale have enriched themselves at the expense of the poorest in South Africa. There is also the Marikana massacre, where the ruling ANC ordered the "quelling" of a strike by any means neccesary. Hardly the actions of a morally sound government.

As I said, one mans terrorist.....

Jim Eddie

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #16 on: 11/12/2013 at 10:25 »
I dont do politics...I do do terrorism though...if that makes sense...

Were the French Resistance in WW2 terrorists?...No, they were fighting an opposing occupying army in a time of declared war. This is set out in various international laws. The aim was to sabotage and disrupt the occupying forces, not to "terrorise the civilian populations".

Were the SOE who planted bombs all over occupied Europe terrorists?....No, same reason as above. War was officially declared and they operated within international law. Same apples regarding sabotage.

Was William Wallace a terrorist ? No, he was at war. War had been declared by both sides.

A morally corrupt regime ....actually a democratically elected Government recognised by the world.

I do not agree with the sentiments of the ruling National Party back then, or the fact that only the whites (actually, thats not strictly true either) were allowed to vote, but it was an election and an internationally recognised government. Corruption (both financially and morally) is something the ANC were and are very good at! Mandela can’t be blamed directly for that culture but he can be criticized for not speaking out as senior ANC figures like Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale have enriched themselves at the expense of the poorest in South Africa. There is also the Marikana massacre, where the ruling ANC ordered the "quelling" of a strike by any means neccesary. Hardly the actions of a morally sound government.

As I said, one mans terrorist.....

Rob

Can you clarify how a government can be democratically elected when 90% of the population are excluded from voting ?

 :z18

Cheers

jim

Matt Henderson

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #17 on: 11/12/2013 at 10:43 »
I understand where both of you are coming from. However it's hard to understand what any of us would do in that situation. I'd like to think that at least one of us would have the strength of mind to try and change things. Although personally I wouldn't suggest bombs as being the answer.

What really grips my sh*t is the hypocrisy of politicians. David Cameron was involved in a campaign against Mandela and other ANC activists. Yet he's there signing his praises, taking selfies with Obama!

Rob Brownfield

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #18 on: 11/12/2013 at 13:46 »
Can you clarify how a government can be democratically elected when 90% of the population are excluded from voting ?

No problem, I will try my best.

Under the legislation at that time, those eligible to vote voted in a Government in a fair and democratic way. I most certainly do not condone the actions, but the countries constitution, at that time, set the voting criteria.

Please remember that the black population did have the right to vote before white women did in SA! In the pivotal election of 1953, black and white voters voted together. 1970 saw the witdrawal of the blacks right to vote in presidential elections, instead only being allowed to vote in representatives, not ministers.

If we suggest that it is not a democratic vote if people (Nationals) are excluded from a vote, then next years Referendom is null and void before it starts as Scottish nationals who are not resisdent at the time of the vote, cannot vote, whilst those foreign nationals living and working (but not with permanent residence) can. Remember, a non resident National can vote in a General Election to elect a Prime Minister, but under the SNP's rules, cannot define their own copuntries future. Democratic?

Something that is very often forgotton as well is that black South African Nationals did not recognise South Africa as a nation up until quite recent times and therefore viewed elections as a nonsense, as could be seen by the black voters turn outs at previous elections.

SA is now in the position of the ANC showing signs of deep abuse of its political dominance, corruption, vote rigging in provincial elections and extreme violence against its "own people". Not exactly the Wests idea of democracy.

It was extremely telling that current president, Jacob Zuma, received an extremely hostile reception at Mandelas tribute.

Mandela championed fairness and equality for all, hats off to him for that, but his vision is certainly not what is happening in SA just now.

Sorry...i really do not do politics...thats about all I learnt on the subject during Political Studies at a certain military institution. I was brought up believeing in democracy, not violence and bombings. rather ironic that that was taught to me by mean in green! :)

Jim Eddie

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #19 on: 11/12/2013 at 14:06 »
Come on Rob no comaprison between our vote and the situation in South Africa. You are also wrong about the French resitance there was no  state of War between France and Gemany as France had capitulated.

Becuase 10% majority enact laws does not ,mean they are legitimate.

 :z18

Jim  


Jim Eddie

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #20 on: 11/12/2013 at 14:13 »
Rob

I struggle to comprehen how you can even think of trying to legitimise a government who traeted their poeple the way they did.

Steve Biko was detained and interrogated four times between August 1975 and September 1977 under Apartheid era anti-terrorism legislation. On 21 August 1977 Biko was detained by the Eastern Cape security police and held in Port Elizabeth. From the Walmer police cells he was taken for interrogation at the security police headquarters. On 7 September "Biko sustained a head injury during interrogation, after which he acted strangely and was uncooperative. The doctors who examined him (naked, lying on a mat and manacled to a metal grille) initially disregarded overt signs of neurological injury."1
By 11 September Biko had slipped into a continual, semi-conscious state and the police physician recommended a transfer to hospital. Biko was, however, transported 1,200 km to Pretoria – a 12-hour journey which he made lying naked in the back of a Land Rover. A few hours later, on 12 September, alone and still naked, lying on the floor of a cell in the Pretoria Central Prison, Biko died from brain damage.

Anyway thats my last word on the subject

 :z18

Jim 

Rob Brownfield

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #21 on: 11/12/2013 at 15:10 »
Rob

I struggle to comprehen how you can even think of trying to legitimise a government who traeted their poeple the way they did.

I am not. Are you perhaps suggesting that the current ANC Government IS legitimate?

May I suggest you read the Truth and Reconciliation Commissions report on the ANC, its ministers and leaders and the atrocities it admitted to in a court of Law, and perhaps you can tell me how you can justify holding Mandela and the ANC up as legitimate? I well remember "necklacing" on TV news reports, but what is not so well known about is the ANC "re-education" camps set up in Angola where torture and executions were rife. In the ANC's own admission, they talk of "staggering brutality against opposition members".

A paragraph from the report on the ANC run Quatro Camp in Angola.......do a search....might see where I am coming from....

“The worst conditions were at the Quatro camp in Angola, where guards and medical assistants were universally hostile. The inmates, whether convicted of any offense or not, were denigrated, humiliated and abused, often with staggering brutality. Prisoners were forced to crawl through piles of red ants, thrown down into trenches and then made to crawl out while guards poured dirt into the hole. Others were denied food, water and medical treatment. One prisoner had boiling water poured on his head. His head was then regularly struck against a tree to prevent healing. Prisoners were beaten to force confessions. Some prisoners were executed by firing squads for taking part in mutinies, beaten to death for infractions of military discipline or died of malaria and other illnesses in detention. From the late 1970s until 1991, suspected spies were imprisoned for up to eight years without any hearing, tortured to extract confessions, and beaten with sticks and wires.”

Also have a look at the MK, and the book "Mbokodo". Without a shadow of a doubt, the ANC government was and continues to be a regime, despite being voted in.

Matt Henderson

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #22 on: 11/12/2013 at 18:58 »
I tried to defuse this before so I'll try again.  He was great in Shaw Shank Redemption!   :wink

Dutchfly

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #23 on: 11/12/2013 at 19:28 »
Nah, Bruce Almighty  :z16

Soldierpmr

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
« Reply #24 on: 11/12/2013 at 19:31 »
I tried to defuse this before so I'll try again.  He was great in Shaw Shank Redemption!   :wink
Saying that my wife actually thought he was Morgan Freeman.  :X1

 




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