[Hamish Young]

.... this is the "ladies" rod used to great defect in the brilliant "How to Spey Cast" by Mike Daunt    

"Now I like to call this cast the fanny puller" at that point in the DVD I just about pissed myself laughing. For those who are not familiar with it, Mr Daunts unique style of teaching spey casting is demonstrated on his DVD and it's worth spending the £12.75 for a few eye watering moments. Have a look at http://shop.blenheimfilms.com/how-to-spey-cast---with-mike-daunt-2-p.asp or indeed go here
 http://www.youtube.com/user/fosters?v=JKdLZ9P9RdQ&feature=pyv&ad=7968252041&kw=funny

and move forward to 2:47 and watch until 4:13, add a river and you get the same idea for free.

H  

[Hamish Young]

Is there any reason to go longer than 13' and heavier than 8/9? (using SH systems). I've fished but a fraction of the overall Don but have fished it where it was possibly as wide as it gets while still freshwater & have never felt handicapped by the outfit - by the terrain & my vorsprung teknik, yes.

My view is that really you need two rods in your armoury as a Salmon fisher - possibly more.......
For the Don, there is possibly no particular reason to go any longer or heavier than a 13' rod if you're happy with what you've got. However, a longer rod with a heavier rating should be much happier at chucking heavier gear than a 13' 8/9.
By heavier gear I mean chunky tubes on a fast sinking polyleader on a sinking/intermediate head. Now whilst I concede that you're not going to be doing that all the time it makes sense to me to use the right tool for the job - or at the very least a matched outfit suitable for the task at hand. It's not so much about distance, but the ability to easily and without fear of breakage control and move your 'heavy' gear around.

So going back to what I said about two rods......
If you're looking for an all rounder that will do most of what you need on a multitude of different rivers and in all conditions then a 15' makes sense. If you're mainly fishing smaller rivers then something in the 13'-14' also makes sense. But, if you consider a season round approach then in my opinion the bigger rod gives you coverage for spring and autumn/back-end fishing and the smaller rod the perfect thing for summer fishing.

When I fished the Don I usually had two rods in my armoury, a 14' #9wt and a 9'6" 6wt single hander and that covered me for most of the times of year and most of the places I chose to fish the river. However, I seldom fished in the early spring season. If I had, then a 15' rod would have been in my armoury.
Ultimately, there's no right or wrong here, just individual perception.
It's what you can afford and what you wish to fish with that are the overwhelming considerations - but it makes sense to me to have the right tool for the job.

H 

[Ben Dixon]

H,

You feeling O.K?  Most sensible conventional thing you've written for a while.  Worried about you, there's nothing funky suggested there that won't workj 

Sandy, follow the above and you'll not go far wrong 

Ben

[Sandy Nelson]

Yeah

I kinda get the feeling that if just want one rod, then a 15ft'r is probably the way.
especially as i'll only use it Feb,Mar and Oct and perhaps the odd trip to  big stream, seems to make sense
Do i need to go up to a 10 though? guess the flees will be rather heavy 
Still it would beat spinning and anything that makes life easier...........................

Could be interesting

Sandy

[Hamish Young]

Do i need to go up to a 10 though? guess the flees will be rather heavy  

Yes...... and errr....... no. Personally, I've pretty much given up on thinking about salmon rods as being a 9wt or a 10wt (whatever) as by and large I fish with shooting heads. If we stick with shooting heads then it's fair to say that the choice of heads on the market come in a bewildering selection of densities and the vast majority of anglers most probably purchase a shooting head line by matching it to the rating of their rod.
Makes sense doesn't it
Errrrr, well... that isn't necessarily the answer in my opinion.
If you consider the head weight rather than the rod rating (and many rods now feature a head weight rating rather than/in addition to a conventional line rating) then for a 10wt rod you might argue that a 40 gram head is ideal as that corresponds to a 10wt rating.
Then again, that might feel light to you on the rod so you opt for a 42 gram head instead. All of a sudden, your 10wt rod has become a 10.5wt rod, or to put it another way, is halfway to becoming an 11wt. But hang on, maybe 40 grams was too heavy.... and so on.
So in my view the truth is - when it comes to shooting heads - the line rating on the rod is largely subjective.
Salmon rods have come so far in the past few years that the right rod with the right line doesn't feel heavy at all and isn't a chore to fish with. A '10wt' of today feels utterly different to those I remember from 20 years ago, you do not have to consider that simply because a rod is rated as a '10wt' that it's a brutal and cumbersome thing.
Far from it, chances are it's the right tool for the job.

H  

[Iain Cameron]

was wondering how an 11 foot, #7 or #8 Switch rod would fit into this discussion?
(bearing in mind Ben's earlier comment about being under-gunned)

I've a 9/10 line which feels clumsy and heavy at times in low water, due in part to my clumsy and heavy casting...

I can just about cover much of the water that I fish with by roll casting a single-handed 6wt - i've enjoyed this season playing about with single-hand rods & spey casts - and was contemplating a switch rod for low water to get the benefit of double handed casting and the added reach

cheers
iain

[Hamish Young]

Funny that Iain as, oddly enough, I considered buying a switch rod this season past to cover some of the smaller rivers near me (Alness, Brora, Nairn etc.).
I came close to it but, in the end and despite the fact they're nice to play with, I opted not to buy a switch rod.
My reasoning came down to the fact that for most of the places I would be fishing a switch rod I can readily use a single hander with the right line (shooting head ) to achieve exactly the same task.
I use either a 9'6" #6wt or a 10' #7wt single hander and have never felt under gunned. Sure, there are benefits in a switch rod but I would probably chose to (actually, I will) add another double hander next season (to my ever expanding collection of rods ) to achieve the tasks where I cannot use a single hander.
It's a personal choice, but although I like them I'm not sold enough on the switch rod 'concept' to buy one just for the sake of having one when I could be spending that money on a double hander instead.
My two cents.

H

[Ben Dixon]

was wondering how an 11 foot, #7 or #8 Switch rod would fit into this discussion?
(bearing in mind Ben's earlier comment about being under-gunned)

I've a 9/10 line which feels clumsy and heavy at times in low water, due in part to my clumsy and heavy casting...

I can just about cover much of the water that I fish with by roll casting a single-handed 6wt - i've enjoyed this season playing about with single-hand rods & spey casts - and was contemplating a switch rod for low water to get the benefit of double handed casting and the added reach

cheers
iain

Hi Iain,

I have gone away from using the single hander unless I am fishing at Strathdon or from Kildrummy up in a very low water.  Although I can manage anywhere above alford (and some spots below) with a single hander it is far less work with my switch.  Casting effort shared over two arms and if I ever do need to put on a tube or brutal tip it is much easier to do.  If you are covering all of the water you are fishing with your single hander effectively then you don't need a switch rod.  Mine does not get a huge amount of use but I'd not be without it in the armoury.  For fishing rivers like the Alness or river of a similar nature, narrow but, in places rather deep and and quite fast then a switch is superb.  If you want a shot of one give me a shout.

I'm with Hamish here, the switch concept is flawed (as it's been sold to us) beyond belief!

Cheers

Ben

[Iain Cameron]

thanks Ben,
I might take you up on that offer of a wee play.

the switch rod idea was sparked by an old feature (by Ben D) in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying that I re-read - but thinking about it, what I think i'm looking for is a shorter, lighter-rated but double-handed rod for casting/control/reach - hadn't really planned on using it for overhead casting, which i guess is the way the switch rods are marketed.  hmmmm. good. re think time

[Ben Dixon]

thanks Ben,
I might take you up on that offer of a wee play.

the switch rod idea was sparked by an old feature (by Ben D) in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying that I re-read - but thinking about it, what I think i'm looking for is a shorter, lighter-rated but double-handed rod for casting/control/reach - hadn't really planned on using it for overhead casting, which i guess is the way the switch rods are marketed.  hmmmm. good. re think time

I do view mine as short double / mini double handers and do not think of them at all for single handed use but many do

My thoughts on the "switch" concept are as follows....
The whole thing came from the states, they fish for different fish (in some cases) and they certainly fish different methods, long drifts with nymphs & indicators, dead drift dries for salmon at quite some range or dead drifting / rolling stuff along the bottom for pacific salmon.  When there are no steelhead about you can switch to swinging streamers for trout on the same set up.  You can supposedly fish them single or double handed either overhead or with Speys but, IMHO, the lines that make them work well two handed are far too heavy to cast single handed on an 11' rod for anything other than a short time.  There is simply too much leverage on the arm / wrist to be comfortable once you hit 7wt and above

My experience is mainly with the Orvis range and more recently MacKenzie protos for 2012.  These both have the upper grip contoured to be held in different positions, near the reel for single handed use and near the top for DH use.  If for some reason I want to use them single handed I will line them as a single hander with a line about half to one size heavier (using the standard AFTMA scale for single handed rods), that way they work fine as long single handers and would be fine, if a little brutal for loch style boat fishing if required.  For two handed use on the river I line them with a suitable line in salmon weights so a #7 rod would be used with a head between 25 & 30 grams.

The switch concept does work due to the build & fittings of the rods but the switch thing, to me, means i can do more or less anything with the rod but i I have to switch lines.  It has little if anything to do with switching between species although I have thought about a light switch for trout streamer fishing.  I simply do not buy the one line for one and two hand casting concept on any rod.

Some guys are using them to good effect in the salt with lines such as the 40+, going one to two sizes up from the rating of the rod and two hand overhead casting.  Most non casting geeks or non haulers will manage to lob something like that further than they will be able to throw a single hander, also helps with keeping backcast above surf when wade fishing.

There are time I would not want to be without a switch rod, places where a 12 or 13' DH rod is too cumbersome but where I cannot cast the gear I need on a single hander. 

Cheers

Ben

[Iain Goolager]

 

However, a longer rod with a heavier rating should be much happier at chucking heavier gear than a 13' 8/9.

Define 'heavier gear' Hamish.
I guess you could go 3" Brass with a conehead but I've found that I've never needed to go heavier than 1 1/4" copper(slipstream) and this, as you're well aware, can be easily manipulated even with a very dense tip on a 550 Skagit with the 13' er.

I will concede that my two 13'ers (LPXE & Scierra HMVII) seem to be beefy enough to handle this set up but alas the Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.

Iain

[Ben Dixon]

Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.

Iain

I wish I had your face one camera then mate 

Yeah, 550 Skagit will carry that gear in fact, most gear, but the shorter rod is not as effective if you want to "high stick" and hover the fly over particular lies.  That is one of the main reasons I fish a Skagit, give great control of flies when fishing deep. 

Cheers

Ben

[Hamish Young]

Define 'heavier gear' Hamish.

I did.... in the very next sentence 

I guess you could go 3" Brass with a conehead but I've found that I've never needed to go heavier than 1 1/4" copper(slipstream) and this, as you're well aware, can be easily manipulated even with a very dense tip on a 550 Skagit with the 13' er.

I often fish 2-3" tubes in spring and autumn, some are indeed brass.... oddly enough. Mind you, I don't think I'd be brave enough to have a cone head on the front of one of them Agreed, that gear is very much the exception to the norm which would indeed be a 1/2-2" copper or aluminium tube. I do not deny that it's possible and practical in some cases to manipulate heavy gear on a 13' rod - doubtless a skagit would help - but personally I would rather use, and would recommend, something beefier than a 13' rod for someone just coming into the sport and looking for an all-rounder.
Which is where we started on this thread.

I will concede that my two 13'ers (LPXE & Scierra HMVII) seem to be beefy enough to handle this set up but alas the Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.

I've not chucked a Scierra salmon rod at all (that I can recall) but I have used an LPXE 14ft which was most impressive.
In 25 years (on and off) of chucking salmon rods around I've broken (or had break on me, not sure that's the same ) three salmon rods. One was a muppet mistake which I will never make again, but the other two went because they were not the right tool for the job - I tried to fish too heavy gear on them. If it's an acceptable axiom that we learn from our mistakes and pass on that learning to others as perceived wisdom, then I stand by my suggestion that really a 13' rod isn't the best tool for the job of chucking heavy gear around.

H

[Sandy Nelson]

Its been good this

So who wants to swap a half decent 14 or 15ftr for a 9ft 4wt TCX
Anyone got something interesting sitting around that might suit me and have a fancy for a trout rod for windy conditions, lightweight saltwater rod or just fancy practising chucking fluff a long way, maybe it would get more use than the 15ftr in the cupboard .

If anyone has anything, PM  me and we can discuss, the TCX is worth around 300-350 so sensible offers only please.

Cheers

Sandy

[Sandy Nelson]

Been raking Fleebay

Anyone know anything about Loomis Stingers? sound like they might be good for this underhand stuff with the shooting heads.
1 or 2 kicking around as well, just got to get the price down to the right bracket

Any suggestions as to what else to "watch" given i'll be fishing Heads and practising with the lower hand
Casting tubes with weight while surrounded by snow

Sandy