[Richard Tong]

I was at the Grayling Symposium at Appleby on Eden on Saturday. Jeremy Lucas gave a 60 minute demo on this method which he has written extensively about in FF & FT. Weather was perfect with very little breeze however river was perhaps 8" up. He showed both with nymphs (2 bead heads) and dry (Single Plume Tip). He did not catch but that was not the point, he was simply showing us the method. Very interesting to see it in action after reading so much about it. Regarding the dry fly, he did get some very long drag free drifts. He mentioned that he has virtually ceased fishing with a fly line now! Afterwards I had a long chat with him and he did concede that as far as accuracy was concerned it was not the same as with a fly line though he did say after a lot of practice you could get close to this....I'm  not so sure.

The casting action was a very short power stroke through a short arc. Lift off of a fly created vitually nil water disturbance and there was no 'spritz' when false casting and he said both factors were a huge advantage. I'm not so sure as any fly fisherman worth his salt who fishes to a targeted fish would wait until the fly was well past it to lift off and then false cast away from the target zone. He did seem to need quite a few false casts to get his fly out sometimes but perhaps when necessary he would not need to do this.

He fishes it in all conditions. I just cannot get my head around fishing it an anything more than a light breeze and would like to see how effective it is then, but he insists that this is the way forward. For my part, on some of the rivers I fish, say the upper Annan, low water, sunny and windy, you cannot sometimes get within the 10m mark that he says is the limit and frequently we are outside this range whilst pitching to fish which would otherwise, despite the most careful approach (sometimes taking 10-15 minutes) be offski!

His conviction and belief in the method are 100% and he presented his case with passion and knowledge. Definitely gives 'food for thought' though we in the UK are conservative by nature and I cannot see it catching on that quickly. Especially when his former team mates such as Howard Croston, Tyzack, Simon Robinson and Stuart Crofts do not (to the best of available knowledge) fish it. These guys are at the cutting edge so to speak and if it were the panacea then surely they would all have abandoned everything else in favour of this method.

Richard

[Hamish Young]

Interesting stuff Richard, I have to confess that after some initial interest on my part in the concept I have not followed that up by actually trying the method.

I suppose it's like anything else, if it 'floats your boat' you'll keep trying to make the method work even if seems like persistence in the face of perceived wisdom is a route to a straight jacket and a column in a fishing magazine
I cannot deny that I really believe some folk become incredibly specialised in their approach to fishing because they can, not because it's any better than another method - more sheer bloody mindedness
I jest, of course, but it's interesting to me that fly fishing has developed beyond the limitations of the sport that I became aware of as I started to get into fishing 30-ish years ago.

So perhaps, like many techniques that have come and gone over the years, the idea is to become familiar with the method and, perhaps, one day a piece of water or a fish lying in certain spot will dust off the grey cells and you'll rig up this method as nothing else will work..... somehow I doubt it, but it's probably re-assuring for the creators of the weird and wacky methods that their ideas aren't lost in the mists of time.

H  

[Michael Buchan]

Here is an article he wrote on the other forum about the method will hopefully have a play with it next year

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/news/flyfishing/instruction/frontier/fishing-on-the-frontier-part-37-leader-to-hand.html

His book is also worth a read 

Michael

[Alex Burnett]

This is the method they use to fish the Cape Streams in South Africa, I was shown how to
fish this way by Korrie Broos (Captain of the RSA Fly Fishing Team) & have used it & it does work
both using Dry Fly & Nymph methods fishing pocket waters using between a 20ft & 30ft leader
and never more than 6" to 1 ft of flyline.

Alex

[Richard Tong]

Alex,

You maybe fished a similar method but as stated there is no flyline here! From the fly to the reel is purely leader, hence 'leader to hand'. The leader itself is a very definite make up too

Richard

[Noel Kelly]

 Like Alex I learnt this method in south Africa from the same guy on probably the same river. It worked really well but I found it really hard work. Rod arm has to be held high at all times which quickly gets difficult and concentration has to be 100% which is also difficult after an hour or 2.
That river was super clear and stuffed with fish. It was common to miss 2 takes and hook up on a third one all in a 2 yard drift.
The following spring I tried it out on the don. Had a few fish on nymphs but not many and of no size. Then again I have not found nymphs to be very successful on the don.
I reckon it would be the perfect method for shoals of grayling, easy to repeatedly cover a small area with minimum disturbance.

[Noel Kelly]

Ah ok Richard I missed that 2. No fly line hmmm not seen that before. That thumbs down on my post was finger trouble on my phone here.

[Richard Tong]

Just read Mark Bowlers Editors Quill in this months FF & FT which has just landed through my letter box. He mentions French Leader and Leader to Hand in the same sentence. According to Jeremy Lucas they ARE NOT the same thing, though it would be nice to see in print how they differ. There was no coil of fluo stren indicator on JL's LTH leader

MB fished the Welsh Dee with the FL with nymphs. My 'interest' with LTH lies in its possibilities with dry fly.

Just had a conversation with my mate John Glynn who has used no flyline all season and reckons that it's the business but I have to find out more from him.

JL reckons that practically all commercially tied FL are no good but that of the ones available, Camou were the best(of a bad bunch??)

Richard

[Peter McCallum]

Mmmmmmmmm, playing devils advocate,why not add a fixed spool reel to the outfit? I learned to catch trout using a fly rod, fixed spool reel and a short lining technique - some times freelined worm sometimes bait or fly fished under a float approximately the same size as the smallest fish pimp indicator, or else a sighter tuft of sheeps wool fresh from a handy fence. the leader to hand method seems precisely the same except the basic leader is tapered, we certainly weren't casting any further than 30ft even though we had spinning reels.

Now I would be the last to condemn any legal method, it's your choice, but if we are going to the lengths of nylon straight through from reel to fly why not go the whole hog? Many of the nymphs used, even the smallest could be cast 30 ft using a light spinning rod so why make things complicated? It's certainly not 'fly fishing' in the normally accepted sense and if you get rid of the fly line is it any different from casting a mepps spinner or fly spoon? Indeed a size 6 woolly bugger is probably heavier than the mepps I've been using recently to catch salmon.

So do we define Fly fishing as the use of an artificial fly presented to the fish by means of a rod and 'fly line' or just that we use artificial flies presented using whatever tackle we wish?

Maybe Alex Wanless was right all along.

[ibm59]

I'll admit to being intrigued by this method , but can't see the cast working in any more than a mere puff of wind.
Which rules it out for most waters I fish.
Am I missing something?

[Richard Tong]

Well I asked this very question of the man. He uses it in ALL weather conditions and simply goes with the wind. I agree about wind being a limiting factor in getting the fly out but i guess when it is out then the wind will not affect the relatively small mass of leader as it does a relatively thick flyline.

My mate John Glynn has been using a LTH all year on Derbyshire Wye using a commercially available French Leader from John Tyzack and reckons it's the dogs whatsits and my mate Paul(Procter) had a shot apparently when he was down there 3 weeks ago so I will have to quizz him-though he hasn't said anything to me which is unusual. Both these guys are no BS'ers. I am going to try and get down onto Wye with John, so will see for myself and will report back if I do

Richard

[ibm59]

He uses it in ALL weather conditions and simply goes with the wind.


 so will see for myself and will report back if I do

Unfortunately , going with the wind would mean fishing downstream 90% of the time for me.
At close range , and in full view of a very spooky trout and grayling population.

 I really would love to be proved wrong , but I just can't see this working where I fish most of the time.

Looking forward to your report.

[Rob Brownfield]

I really don't understand why you trouties make things so difficult for yourselves

Its not a new method really, just to Trouties. The method is identical to what the match boys used on the Lea and Thames in the 60's and 70's. They learnt the method from Italian and French POW's/imigrants.

The coarse boys used a 12 foot rod, centrepin reel and a "fake" maggot made of copper wire tapered into a carrot shape and covered in white silk. Think Sawyers Grayling Bug but looking like a maggot.

As far as I can see, the only difference would have been the fact that a handful of real maggots would be thrown in and the fake maggot plonked in amoungst them.

Taking it a step further and doing the sensible thing of removing the reel to cut down weight and removing the rings and tying the line to the tip...you have Tenkara fishing. The method is identical to "leader to hand", just the Japanese have been sensible and adapted the tackle to be as light and efficient as possible.


I am just waiting for the day Mike lets me bring my "whip" or 14.5 meter Pole and leaded bugs to Haddo to show how effective the method is.

[Allan Liddle]

Fish the French a few times when conditions dictate on the Deveron and never ceases to amaze how you can pick out decen fish from water that's all of a few inches deep and every stone visible.  Tend to use the coiled stren on the end of a tapered carp leader whch goes back onto the reel so no flyline to hand.  10 foot through action rod a must really however i've been using the 9 1/2 ft Streamflex Plus 5# a lot when i hit on the idea of using the extension piece on the 10 ft 4# Streamflex to take it to 10ft6.  Fecking amazing for this style but still feel you need light to no wind to get it to work properly, and yes you still need to get right onto the fish. (i also use this rod with the added bit to short line more effectively in big waves on the tube. Fecking outstanding with the added bonus of being able to drop back to the dries on the 'shorter' rod without the need to try and throw the old B&W Powerlite 10 6 and ending the day thinking you'd been to the gym)
Haven't thought about using it as a method to fish dries, might give it a bit more thought though, still also think you need the right bit of water.  It worked best for me early on this season in the hot Spring and low clear water, but to be fair normal nymph style worked as good just as often.
No 'Rod Benders' to it either but a few in the no bad stamp.

Years back in my Angling Apprentice days as a young impressionable 14 year old amongst all the crusty wily vetrans of the Roslin British Legion Angling Section bait fishing was highly practised, and highly skilled.  Funny how when i think back we're really trying to emulate these guys with artificial flies and fly techniques.  Long rods and full nylon leaders with tiny baits were the norm for some of these guys especially on the Clyde and they killed some spectacular results.  Sadly 'killing' was the keyword here i'm afraid, thankfully things have changed a good bit now though.

Allan

[Noel Kelly]

Hi Allan
All interesting to read as usual. Question for you, in general how have you faired with nymphs on the NE rivers?
Another question how about a Crask report I'm being naughty tonight having a wee dram on a tuesday. My excuse is its not every decade Ireland qualify for a major round ball competition