[Loxiafan]

Only got the pdf-version so I really couldn't tell and I take your word on it...

And confusing it is... with my Waterhen Bloa it's almost the same... One book talks about Pearsalls no. 3 (primrose) and the other one about Yellow no. 4...

It is hard to see the colours in the Pritt, but in Nemes book the colour for P+O, Brown Owl, Needles etc is a dark Orange eg. not 6A Gold as depicted above in the first post (far left) but closer to probably 19 Hot Orange. Eds and Lee's chart the 'modern' 6A Gold (again far left above) is nothing like the 6A they show (and recommend for aforementioned flies) but is like "Antique 6A" above. I think Phil Holding and the guy that dyes the threads at Langley (who also dyed for Pearsalls btw !) found some really old spools and used light Spectrophotometry to calibrate and produce the authentic old shades in modern manufacture. It seems in time the original Antique 6A shade watered down to the Gold 6A that Pearsall's still sell. You can get original 6B shade thread from Phil too btw.

One thing we haven't discussed is how the old (really old) thread is actually much thicker than the modern stuff - you can see this in some of Mike Harding's piccies. Apologies, I am a bit of a history geek ! 

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

One thing we haven't discussed is how the old (really old) thread is actually much thicker than the modern stuff - you can see this in some of Mike Harding's piccies. Apologies, I am a bit of a history geek !  

Lindsay

I noticed a difference in thickness too now you mention it... I just thought he did a few turns more, but could be the thread...

I'm not that deep into the history of things, but I like to know where thing are coming from... Got no energy to read all the books etc. available and lean on people like you... so thanks for the lessons....   ( )

[Sandy Nelson]

Syl was a yank and may have used different silks
I've had a few interesting conversations with him over the years, he will be much missed :z19.

The dyeing info is very interesting though, amazing what we fly fishers will do just to fool a few fish.
Nostalgia plays a big part in what makes a lot of us tick, isn't it great

Is the the thicker stuff not just Naples as opposed to Gossamer though? i know both were used to whip rod rings, depended on how thick the blank was and its intended purpose.

Sandy

[Loxiafan]

From Pritt (1885) ala Nemes Book (no image manipulation on my part):


Orange Partridge:



Winter Brown:



Yellow Partridge:




I'll have to do the swatch from Eds and Lee later as I think my pic is too big.

If you compare these shades to those spools I posted, the light 6A (marked "old" and furthest left) doesn't really match these shades (though might if heavily waxed ?). To me Pritts flies are painted Orange not light Orange or Gold. I understand that Pritt painted them himself (?), and if so possibly from flies he had in front of him. Whethers the printers got it right who know ! The Yellow on the Yellow Partridge is a deadringer for shade No.4 too imho.

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Think you're right Lindsay... This is a real orange and doesn't look like 6a to me...

Just a question... are these pics from a PDF-file or did you take them yourself ?

Here's a 'copy' from my pdf... you see why I can identify the colors...

[Loxiafan]

Have tried uploading the Eds and Lee swatch but am getting an error - file too big. Have resized and still no joy.

This follows Eds and Lee:

http://www.flytyingboutique.com/store/Details.asp?ProdID=140&category=9

It seems the 6A shade became lighter (than in Eds and Lees' day) and has become 'accepted' as the correct shade, but actually isn't the 'orange' of Pritt or Eds and Lee (it seems, and is closer to shade 5 if anything). For P+O and winter Brown etc this you need Antique 6A or maybe just 6.

Now go tell a pro Yorkshire fly tier that and see how quickly he takes your head off !

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Now go tell a pro Yorkshire fly tier that and see how quickly he takes your head off !

 

[Loxiafan]

Just a question... are these pics from a PDF-file or did you take them yourself ?

Hi Sieger,

These pics were scanned from Nemes book "The Soft Hackled Fly Addict" - I have no idea how (or if) they manipulated the images. They look like pretty much straight photographs to me, and it would have been film in those days. Guess I would have to get an original copy of Pritt but don't think the bank manager will oblige....that sort of transaction might put up the GDP for United Kingdom in a heartbeat the way things are ! 

I'll tell you who will know: Oliver Edwards and Malcolm Greenhalgh.

There was a muted 'silence' on UK fly from other pro tiers of the Yorkshire trad - and who seem to use the lighter 6A for Orange. Maybe they just can't bring themselves to buy some from Phil who is of course a competitor.

Better than watching the telly this !

Lindsay

[Loxiafan]

Nostalgia plays a big part in what makes a lot of us tick, isn't it great

Is the the thicker stuff not just Naples as opposed to Gossamer though? i know both were used to whip rod rings, depended on how thick the blank was and its intended purpose.

Hi Sandy,

Aye, I think the historical perspective is really interesting and 'tradition' is so often used with spider style that it may be important (to some). On the other hand techniques and equipment evolve and this too is a tradition of sorts.

Some of the Gossamer threads in Hardings book look really quite 'ropey' to me, much more substancial than the threads I have - the kind you would have to unravel to get a nice small head.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Loxiafan]

6a, gold, is the "correct" colour. My spools are the same colour as that depicted in the colour chart above.

I bought a few spools of the lighter 6A from you guys on Monday Ben. I'm no so sure it is the historic shade, but I quite like it nonetheless, probably more effective in peaty/slightly coloured water.

Phil Holding says that if you wax the lighter Gold 6A it darkens up quite like the "Antique 6A" shade.

Cheers,

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

Lindsay I had an other look at the picture on the Boutique site and to be honest I think these pictures are too bright and they did overdo it with the saturation in the processing (the 4, 6a and 7 look far too bright...)....

But that's the difficulty with colors on computers... Any screen or branch does it's own thing... (I know this from my photography.... Pics on my screen may look good and on another's dirty or greyish...   )

In this tread on the flyforums... the shades a more subtle.... But I have seen some 5 or 6 cards now and no 1 color seem the same...  Think we have to find an 1765 P&O to be sure....  

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/fly-tying-forum/60531-classics-orange-partridge-2.html

[Sieger Devries]

Phil Holding says that if you wax the lighter Gold 6A it darkens up quite like the "Antique 6A" shade.
Cheers,
Lindsay

It does Lindsay, but take the hard wax like the Veniard wax... Not the Cobblers wax... will give a greenish shade to it...

[Loxiafan]

Lindsay I had an other look at the picture on the Boutique site and to be honest I think these pictures are too bright and they did overdo it with the saturation in the processing (the 4, 6a and 7 look far too bright...)....

In this tread on the flyforums... the shades a more subtle.... But I have seen some 5 or 6 cards now and no 1 color seem the same...  Think we have to find an 1765 P&O to be sure....  

http://www.flyforums.co.uk/fly-tying-forum/60531-classics-orange-partridge-2.html

Yes, the swatches on Phils site are bright, but to be fair they are pretty accurate. In the link you give there is photos of the three shades of "6". The one in the middle is the Gold (new) 6A but notice how much darker the one on the far left is and this is 6A (ala Antique). I don't even think the 6A Gold matches the left hand swatch on that forum thread.

It is pretty subjective and could get a bit "Spinal Tap" if we're not careful eg "How Orange is Orange" !

You should be tying your to match the Dutch National Team shirt anyway ! 

Lindsay

[Sieger Devries]

It is pretty subjective and could get a bit "Spinal Tap" if we're not careful eg "How Orange is Orange" !

Think you're right, let's leave it here...  Though it's rather nice during the Champions league games... 

You should be tying your to match the Dutch National Team shirt anyway ! 
Lindsay

This would definitely be "Hot" Orange.... 

[Loxiafan]

It all comes down to whether we think the Pearsall's swatch in Edmonds and Lee is accurate - I think it is. Assuming it is then the 'modern' Perasall's Gold 6A (far left in my pic) actually matches shade 5 in their book ! It is quite hard to see the colour of the flies, but then of course they do actually specify the shades in their recipe:

Partridge and Orange uses "orange silk 6A" - this matches Phils Antique 6A ( and possibly should be referred to as this to avoid confusion ?). This will see you historically correct ala 1916 - 100 years, not bad !

Cheers,

Lindsay