[Mike Barrio]

Hi folks

I've been playing today .....  

Tis always fun trying to work out what a piece of "blurb" actually means  and I've been noticing a fair bit about stretch and non stretch fly lines in the magazines and catalogues lately ...... curious I am

So I tried a couple ( or 5 ) and tied one end to a tree to see how much effort it takes to stretch them ..... and found I could tell the difference between a stretch and non stretch line when I pulled directly on the fly line with my arm/body, but I had to put a fair amount of effort in to it There is no way I could apply this amount of "pulling power" with a fly rod tip, not even an 8wt

So I would therefore be a tad doubtful about them having any affect on feeling takes, protecting tippets, improving strike rates etc etc ..... but as always ..... I could be wrong

I would suggest (IMVHO) that your fly rod plays a far more important role in these things .....

Any thoughts folks?
Best wishes
Mike

[j.r fartley]

i had noticed a few references to line stretch recently,surely feeling a take cant be a reason for non stretching lines ? i always find a new line needs a good stretch at first! 

[Jim Eddie]

Stretch has never been a factor in making a fly line choice , unless the thing sterched like an elastic band can't see it making much difference.

 

Jim

[Jonathan]

Lines are not meant to be stretched.
Let the fish do the stretching.

Jonathan

[Irvine Ross]

As you say Mike, a stretch line can't make any difference once you are playing the fish as the rod has a lot more flex. The only time it might help to protect the tippet is if you get a hard take when you are retrieving line with the rod down, especially if it's a fast retrieve. But then I can't remember that happening to me often.

Marketing hype I suspect.

Irvine

[Rob Brownfield]

Interesting what you say about "feeling takes" Mike...I have had this arguement regarding bite detection between braid (non stretch) and nylon when carp fishing...bare with me..it is relavent 

If you have 50 yards of braid and 50 yards of nylon laying on the ground and you tie a half ounce weight on the end of both, go to the other end and pull, then the weights will move at exactly the same time and for the same distance. Do the same with a 5 pound weight and the braid will move first and further as it had no stretch.

So, and here is the relavent bit...a trout gently plucking at a buzzer at 20 yards will still give the same pull at your fingers whether stretchy or non stretchy lines are being used as its a gently pluck. Maybe if a large fish smashes into your fly then a stretchy line is an advantage as it may cushion the hit..BUT..and its a big BUT, the drag of the water on a line thats being taken across the surface at a right angle will take away a lot of the cushion effect as the drag wil take up the slack.

Lastly, its often quoted that a non stretch line will cast further. I have my doubts. Here is my theory...if you take two catapults, rig one with elastic, one with string...which one will fire a stone further? With a stretchy fly line its the weight of the line itself that is causing the stretch on the back cast as you stop. The rod will still load fully and as it unloads on the forward stop, that fly line, that has stretched a little, will want to return to its former length..so it acts like the catapult elastic and fires the line forward.

But like you say Mike, the stretch on a 25 yard line probably has very little effect compared to a non stretch line...a 40 yard salmon line may be more noticable.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Rob

From my experiments the other day, I don't think that there is any way that you could put enough weight/pull on the fly line when casting to stretch it, as the rod absorbs and stores the energy when it loads?

Cheers
Mike

[Hamish Young]

Interesting topic 

I can see advantages of low/non stretch in sinking lines (in particular) and whilst I suspect that a low/non stretch line could have an advantage for casting it would be minimal at best. A very small percentage in improvement with no real clear advantage over 'conventional' technology lines.
I suppose the only fair test would be to make up two fly lines of exactly the same profile and exactly the same weight cast them on the same rod and see which went further..... but even then the chances are that the next person to pick up the rod and cast both lines after each other might get a different result...... hmmmmm.
Lets' face it, if there were a huge advantage for distance then everyone but everyone going for distance competition casting would use one now wouldn't they As far as I'm aware they don't.
Do we look for low-stretch in sinking lines Well, I do as it happens. Trouble is I have a strong distaste for most products from a certain brand well known for being at the forefront of this 'technology', I tend to see most of their advertising material as quality bullshit of the highest order.
I remain to be convinced.

Hamish 

[Rob Brownfield]

Hi Rob

From my experiments the other day, I don't think that there is any way that you could put enough weight/pull on the fly line when casting to stretch it, as the rod absorbs and stores the energy when it loads?

Cheers
Mike

Mike,
The line will stretch as the load on the rod reaches maximum, and when you start the forward cast, it will stretch more (by theory) because it is travelling one way and the rod is trying to go the other BUT I agree that it probably not be any noticable amount....

[Rob Brownfield]

Lets' face it, if there were a huge advantage for distance then everyone but everyone going for distance competition casting would use one now wouldn't they As far as I'm aware they don't.

Maybe no one has thought about it enough??  

Simple experiment I have just done....

I have some pole elastic with me (dont ask)...and tied it to a pencil. I held the pencil upright and pulled the elastic back..just enough to put a little tension on it..and let go. This is as close as I can get to scaling down a fly line. Anyway, the pole elastic shot forward at high speed.

I did the same with some 50 pound nylon..similar diameter and no matter how much tension I put on it, it did not go any where near as fast.


Thinking about an easier experimet, if you had two lines,  tie the lines off one end, then stretch them out...then let go. I bet the stretchier line pings back further than the non strethcy one with the same amount of pull applied. I would state money on it infact....meaning greater line speed.

Back to Mikes point...if both lines where the same weight etc, the rod would never load more with one line or the other..so..a stretchy line, all be it only a little stretchy should "ping" forward faster with the same applied forward cast..and thus travel further due to line speed.

BUT..now I am thinking  ..arrrghhh...the "ping" of the line would occur at the moment in time when the rod unloads and releases the "pulling" part of the cast...so what is to stop the "elastic"  from unloading not only from the fly end but also the tip end..and thus actually killing the cast and removing line speed....

So..after all that thinking...it probably does mean a non stretch line should actually cast further as there is not force in the line pulling in opposing directions....

Geeez...I am going to stick to Thermal Dynamics of Umbilical coatings whilst under pressure and torsion forces...so much easier as there are formulas to work with..lol

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Rob

The pencil experiment can't really help with the question IMHO, as it doesn't flex like a fly rod does

I guess this is a bit like when you see folk grabbing tippet material with both hands and pulling it apart in a sharp and strong movement, the tippet breaks and is often said to be rubbish ..... yet it is not possible to put that type of pressure on the tippet when you pull it against a fly rod, so a fish cannot do this

I also have come to the conclusion that you can't stretch either type of line with a fly rod while casting, as the fly rod cannot create enough "pull" or weight to stretch the line

Try threading a line through a trout rod, get somebody to hold it up high as you would when playing a fish or casting, then you pull on the fly line ...... you'll be surprised how little "pull" you need to bend the rod over like it does when you have a large hard fighting fish on the end

Best wishes
Mike

[Rob Brownfield]

Try threading a line through a trout rod, get somebody to hold it up high as you would when playing a fish or casting, then you pull on the fly line ...... you'll be surprised how little "pull" you need to bend the rod over like it does when you have a large hard fighting fish on the end

Oh believe me, I have done this experiment several times I wanted to prove to a certain national Pike angling club that a fly rod is more than capable of landing big pike...and I showed that my 10 weight fly rod could apply more pressure than most "accepted" pike rods..but thats another story

The pencil was as close as I could get to a fly rod.....I thought it was an inspired experiment given that I was sat in my office at the time

I am pretty sure I have something with the stretchy line casting further..maybe it will only work with a 6oz weight I shall build a test rig at the weekend.. Certainly the carp boys have gone away from braid as a shock leader to nylon as it was felt the distances improved..need to do some casts in the garden

[Ben Dixon]

Really not sure how much if any practical difference a non stretch line would make although I do not think that an over stretchy flyline is a desirable thing.  I think if any of the companies whose lines I liked made a non stretch line then I would buy it preference to a less non stretch line.  In terms of casting, I believe the stiffness of the coating is more important.  I recently tried a low stretch line that was advertised as memory free & very supple, I could not argue with either of those claims but it was so supple that it sagged all over the place.
In terms of take detection, again, I think it makes little difference particularly with floating lines where takes tend to be visible although it may well be different with sinkers where subtle takes will not be seen, would I go and buy a line simply because it was non stretch?  Probably not but I dont think having a line that is low stretch is in any way a bad thing.

Cheers

Ben

[Hamish Young]

Thinks...... just as a matter of interest, I wonder how far we've come in terms of stretch and fly line manufacture

Just exactly how much stretch is there in a modern line when compared with an equivilant silk line..... and how does that silk line compare to low-stretch 'modern' fly lines
Hmmmmmmm.
Sounds like one for Magnus to reserach

Hamish 

[Rob Brownfield]

Weren't silk lines totally non stretch? I had one on an old salmon reel I bought..pretty sure that was like modern braid and has no stretch at all.

I believe the stretch in a modern line is dependent on the core. Add a non stretch core and you start to get problems with memory...strangely enough its a problem with umbilicals for the offshore industry...they get torsional and tensile differences in the central core (especially with steel tubing) and the plastic outer which cause them to twist and coil on themselves.