Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Dave Mundie

Salmon
« on: 07/03/2009 at 20:04 »
Not tried salmon fishing yet.

I've read and heard about kelt's, springers and other names but whats the difference and how would i know them :?

Dave

Jim Eddie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #1 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:12 »
Dave

A kelt is a fish that has spawned and is basically waiting to go back to sea, they can be silver but are usually very thin. A Springer is a fresh run fish that comes into the river , you guessed it in spring. These are apposed to Autum fish , guess when they come into the river  :z4

Then there are grilse , these are small salmon that have generally only spent 1 year at sea.

Basically a fresh run Salmon is like a silver torpedo , if its thin or coloured its a kelt , baggot , rawner or in breeding condition , this link should help.

http://www.atlanticsalmontrust.org/salmon_facts/recognition.html

 :z18

Jim

Dave Mundie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #2 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:15 »
 :z18 Jim dont have any geer for salmon fishing but thought i'd like to know they were before starting.  :z16

dave

Ben Dixon

Re: Salmon
« Reply #3 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:21 »
Dave,

If you have heavy (7wt or above) single handed rods then you do have salmon gear  :grin  Some places I chose to fish, a DH rod is simply is likely to catch you less fish, provided you are competant at playing fish then there is no reason you can go salmon fishing with heavy reservour trout gear.

Cheers

Ben

Magnus Angus

Re: Salmon
« Reply #4 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:27 »
Baggot - great word.

Fish which entered the river late and either has not spawned or only recently.

Dave Mundie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #5 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:35 »
Ben

I got a 9' 6" shakspere dont know model 7/8 weight with 7weight floater and intemediate i've not used since i bought a 5 weight from mike, so i guess that would do then?

Dave

Jim Eddie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #6 on: 07/03/2009 at 20:38 »
I think its just ( I'm struggling to think of the right words) tradition ? why we fish double handed Salmon rods in the UK, I can understand perhaps on some of the larger rivers Tweed, Tay Spey etc , but you can cover most of the aberdeenshire rivers with a 10 ft rod as Ben says .
On most of the rivers in Iceland they use single handed rods for Salmon , until recently when the discovered Spey rods most of the North Americans used single handed rods for salmon.

 :z18

Jim

  

Barry Robertson

Re: Salmon
« Reply #7 on: 07/03/2009 at 21:15 »
Would you not agree that its probably best to have a decent reel with a good drag for when you hook into a decent fish!
Nothing worse than having to cup your reel to slow it down  :z4

Mike Barrio

Re: Salmon
« Reply #8 on: 07/03/2009 at 21:31 »
Hi Baz :cool:

I don't normally like drags and prefer to "cup my reel" for trout fishing :wink

But yes, when it comes to fishing for salmon, or saltwater fly fishing ..... I would like a decent drag :z16

Best wishes
Mike

Dave Gordon

Re: Salmon
« Reply #9 on: 07/03/2009 at 21:49 »
Gents

Although I would not normally disagree with such experienced anglers I have a couple of observations on the single handed rod angler taking salmon.

At this time of year many anglers are fishing intermediate, sinking or floating lines with tips. These are ok for fishing on a loch, when you retrieve a full line, but difficult to cast with a single handed rod when you are lifting a long line. Also, casting a heavy tube fly can be difficult or even dangerous for a beginner with a light and short rod.

Our experts will manage with ease, i could not do it all day, for sure! With my single hander i can do a good overhead cast, and a short roll cast. However i could not roll cast a 2'' tube. with my double hander a single spey, double spey, snake role and whatever else will whack out a tube to the limit of my casting ability.

In summer a couple of years ago i took a salmon on a light ourfit and vowed i would never do it again. I landed the fish, but it took too long. It was exhausted and took a long time in warm water to recover. As a C&R angler it made me decide not to be so undergunned again.

Many will manage, some very well, but a beginner will struggle, i believe.

D

Hamish Young

Re: Salmon
« Reply #10 on: 07/03/2009 at 22:16 »
I think Dave makes a fair point, right tackle for the job and all that.

However, a lot still depends on the water you're on and the tackle you've got. A good ('stout' in old speak) #7 or #8wt single hander is fine for the majority of Salmon on most of the Don (for example) above Castle Forbes, possibly even lower down too.
Using a single hander limits some of the possibilities of flies, but is generally much easier to fish in confined spaces and as Ben has demonstrated to me and others, single handed spey casting with a single hander is a thing of joy (and distance).

In the summer on smaller rivers I only fish a single handed rod but I was brought up fishing for summer salmon, grilse and sea trout on spate rivers so I'm kind of used to that - but a lot of folk fihsing the bigger rivers (like the Spey or Dee) happily fish with a single hander in low water conditions so perhaps you have to temper the use of a single hander with experience, or lack of it. Anyone who has hooked a salmon whilst fishing for trout will know what being out of control can feel like - but what the hey, could easily just be that trout of a lifetime too :!

The more inexperienced Salmon angler might do better to start off with a nice easy to use double hander to get into the swing of things and get a few fish under his/her belt before having the confidence and skill to deal with a Salmon on a lighter outfit.

In these days of C&R, think of the fish first  :wink

Hamish  :z3

Dave Gordon

Re: Salmon
« Reply #11 on: 07/03/2009 at 22:25 »
Well said sir!

That is what i was trying to say, you just made the points more elequently!

That and get whacked by a 2 inch tube with a pointy double on its back side being flung by an powerfull rod and you know you have been hit!

D

Jim Eddie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #12 on: 07/03/2009 at 22:46 »
Absolutely agree guys , I'm not advocating fishing for Salmon with an undergunned rod. What I'm saying is that for cetain rivers a single handed rod is adequate , my single handed Salmon rod is 10ft 8# , I do not think this is undergunned.

The largest rod caught salmon ( King) would have been caught on a single hander. I'm not anti double hander by the way , just the right rod in the right circumstances.

 :z18

Jim   

Ben Dixon

Re: Salmon
« Reply #13 on: 07/03/2009 at 23:09 »
Hamish / Dave,

I agree totally with the above, it does depend on the angler and their abilities.

This time of year I am fishing a sinking line and a large heavy fly.  I never overhead cast with a heavy Cu or W tube, even on a DH rod, I do not feel comfortable and would not like to do it on a singlehander.

When I talk of salmon fishing with a SH rod, I am talking about mid season fishing where one may be using a size 8 or smaller fly and fishing a floating line with a 5 or 7 foot sink tip, possibly a full intermediate.  When considering rod and line weights, we need to think about the function of the line relative to the task, it needs to be heavier to carry a heavy fly hence a WF5 will not turn over a 1.5" Cu tube, to turn a fly of this size needs a line of quite high mass, it gets to a point where the weight of the line is too much (for most) to cast with one hand so we use two and a DH rod.  This is not the only advantage, you have the ability to lift and manipulate more line with a longer rod.
Single handed outfits for salmon fishing need to be properly balanced particularly if the intention is to Speycast with them, there are lines out there that will make it a breeze but it needs some thought.  I tend to use a heavy short headed line to Spey cast with on a SH rod, currently favour a Loop Opti Stillwater, rolls out a 7IPS sink tip and will shoot a huge distance from a short carry and small D loop.  I will do a demo on single handed salmon techniques at the Orvis / ADAA day on the Dee in April, with the right set up it is possible to chuck 1" Cu tubes and heavy tips on a singlehanded rod.

In terms of rod power and ability to land fish, 9 foot rods rated for 8wt lines are often used and designed to be used for baby Tarpon and salt species up to 30lb so I see no reason why, in the hands of a competant angler, a stiff 8wt reservoir rod cannot be effectively used to humanely land a 15lb salmon.  I have landed spring fish up to 10lb on a 9 foot 6wt rod in under 15 mins, the fish have all swam off strongly.  In some cases I probably would not have hooked them in the first place had I been fishing a DH rod with a heavy Spey line.


Dave23, I would not like to say "yes, go do it" without seeing the outfit you are talking about, if the rod is a soft 7/8 and the line has a fine tip, long front taper and long head then it could be nothing less than painful!


Jim, spot on.

I fished a small river near Edinburgh when I was at Uni there that often required heavy tips & large flies but you could not get near it with anything more than a 10 foot rod, anything more than a 7wt is uncomfortable for me to Spey cast for extended periods and a good fish there was 7lb, I have had 5 & 6lb wild brownies on 3 & 4 wt rods so a 7lb salmon on a 7wt is perfectly controlable IMHO.

Cheers

Ben

Graham Ritchie

Re: Salmon
« Reply #14 on: 07/03/2009 at 23:24 »
Not tried salmon fishing yet.

I've read and heard about kelt's, springers and other names but whats the difference and how would i know them :?

Dave

The AST link posted above give you good infromation on identifying kelts. Other fish you may come across are baggots (unspawned hens) and rawners (unspawned cocks), these seem to be increasingly common. These tend to be quite fat, similar to fresh fish, but their bellies tend to be quite soft and they often carry gill maggots. They are often more coloured than fresh fish, but some can be quite silver and a few are mistaken for fresh fish each season. The links below will let you see some baggots and rawners.

http://salmo.proboards74.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=231

http://salmo.proboards74.com/index.cgi?board=tay&action=display&thread=3024&page=1

http://salmo.proboards74.com/index.cgi?board=spey&action=display&thread=1325&page=1

 




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