[Rob Brownfield]

Magnus,
Somewhere on rodbuilding.org there is a very interesting thread on hardwood handles. Some of those builders have made thousands of rods and i listen to them with sum awe as they really speak from experience. When they say they think a hard wood handle increases the feel of what is going on with the rod then who am i to argue. We are not talking about casting here, maybe i did not make that clear, we are talking about knocks and taps on the fly line that transmit along the line to the rod and thus the hand.

Now i do know that the exposed blank style lure/spinning rod handle most definately transmit more knocks to the hand. They do not use tape or arbors to fill the gap, but are bored to the exact size of the blank and are glued directly to it. Unfortuantly, the reason why i sold mine on was because i found the handle bloody uncomfortable   Shame, as the blank was a stunning Daimaru i made up..best lure rod (built on a tournament Bass blank) i have ever owned.

As for the action of the rod..i am familier with the concept of tapers!  ..i was trying to illustrate what i think is a "feel" to a rod....

[Magnus Angus]

Hi Rob

"Sum awe" 

Rob - take a PVC flyline and attach one end to a tree - pull the line tight, tight enough for a trout to come sailing over your head - and continue to pull and the line will continue to stretch. With a few exceptions modern flylines are all like that - very elastic - silk isn't and a few Airflo lines are not. If we want to feel that type of vibration, ie what's happening at the sharp end in detail, we need a mainline with no stretch and it needs to be pulled very tight - like a couple of tin cans linked with a length of string.

With a fly rod and line the only times when the whole system is pulled tight enough to transmit vibration that means much is when casting and when playing a fish - even then the line and rod are still well within their elastic limits - so they still absorb vibration. Carbon fibre is one of those materials which allows very little plastic deformation before catastrophic failure so we can rest assured unless a rod breaks while playing a fish we never reach its elastic limit. Cane can stretch, it allows some plastic defomation before failing - again that damps any vibration which might reach the rod and eventually the anglers hand.

So - if you want a system of fly-rod and fly-line that transmits as much vibration as possible you get the lightest stiffest rod you can find and a non-stretch fly line - you then pull them as tight as possible - once you've done that maybe then it might make sense to have a rigid grip. With a lure or bait rod - again the lightest and stiffest rod you can find and a non stretch line - GSP, Dyneema or some type of braid - again the grip is next to irrelevant if you use a nylon mainline (very elastic) and have a rod which is heavy or floppy (ie which damps vibration) - and then there's the issue of the system being pulled tight.

On the issue of feel - you seemed to me to be arguing that the material not the taper determined how the rod bent.

[Rob Brownfield]

Hi Rob

"Sum awe" 

It was late!!!

You seem to be missing my point entirely...which is...when a fish taps a fly or lure, there is a pull on the rod tip. If it is a stretchy line then yes, some of that "may"be lost due to stretch...BUT...a line will only stretch if there is a lot of weight on one end.

Lay a fly line out straight (one of mikes, not an Airflo floater, it will never lay straight ) and pull one end a foot. I will guarentee you the other end moves a foot. because it wont stretch as there is no weight on it.

Tie on a 6 oz lead and do the same. It will move about 11.5 inches.

Tie on a 5lb lead and it it wont move as all and stretch.

So taps and plucks at a fly or lure will register on the hand, as the line does not stretch much, or else we would never ever be able to use buzzers or nymphs as you are implying the line will stretch and we wont feel a thing. I am not talking about vibration as in a constant "buzz" through the hand..but when that tip is pulled an inch or so, it is transmitted up the blank to the hand. Some of that will be felt in the hand. Having said that...with Recoil rings there is most deffinately a "buzz" when double hauling!.

As for braid....been using that for just over 10 years although when fishing for soft mouthed fish such as Perch I use a very soft rod or nylon as braid pulls lures from a Perch's mouth if fished on a stiff rod.

And as for tapers...I clearly stated I was comparing like for like when it came to actions.  "yet both rods have an identical (as near as you can get) action and test curve." Of course the action comes partly from taper, partly from material, partly from construction techniques.

[Sandy Nelson]

when a fish taps a fly or lure, there is a pull on the rod tip

Stalking or flyfishing, I would see this before I feel it, so its a moot point.

Sandy

[Irvine Ross]

The leather in a stacked knife grip is hard and we want it that way, the fibres can't flex, in fact anyone making a leather grip works quite hard to make it impossible for them to bend. The slices of leather are compressed and glued together with a proofed edge. Typically glued together with a rubber solution glue - completely insoluble. Water has a very hard time indeed getting into a well made leather stack knife handle.

Yes indeed, but the weak point is the proofed edge and the technique hardly utilises the natural properties of the material. For water repellance we are totally dependant on the coating we have applied. Also because of the compression you get more weight and less cushioning effect. You would get the same effect with less bother by making a stacked handle out of discs cut from a conveyor belt. One of my jobs as a student was welding up rollers made of steel pipe and stacked discs from lorry tyres so I'm an expert in this.

Cork comes complete with natural properties that suit it to the job. It is light, comfortable, gives reasonable grip when wet and is naturally water repellant. All we have to do is shape it. No worries about the coating wearing off.

If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't) then it would make sense to start looking at materials that have the properties we want rather than modifying materials that don't.

Incidentally birch timber is light in colour but not light in weight. It's near as heavy as oak. Its disadvantage is it has little natural resistance to fungus so it would have to be well cared for and regularly oiled or varnished. Oak or elm are naturally durable and would put up with more neglect.

OK I will put my anorak away again

Irvine

[Sandy Nelson]

If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't)

I don't 

Sandy

[Magnus Angus]

Hi Rob

I may seem to be missing your point because I think you're wrong. This started from the notion that a wooden handle communicates more vibration to the angler's hand - I've given my reaction to that - in a fly fishing outfit pretty much every piece of the system attenuates or damps vibration before it reaches the grip.

Although I disagree with Irvine about the viability of alternatives to cork grips - I do agree that cork comes complete with natural properties which suit the job particularly on fly rods - light, suitable bulk modulus, water resistant and the caster's hand has the right type of hold on the smooth firm surface. (The hard composite grip I mentioned earlier seemed to bruise my hand and my fingers were sort of 'stuck' to the surface, not what I'm used to and seemed to me to cause cramp. No doubt I could learn to deal with that.)

Irvine
I doubt wood is heavier than cork/rubber composite - the additional mass is like having a heavier seat or reel - because it's under the hand the additional mass is not enough to change how the rod casts. (The XD Competition I tried is built on the same blank I've used with a conventional grip so I can make a direct personal comparison.)
Research into alternatives to cork has been going on for decades. In "The Technology of Fly Rods" Don Philips writes about several people working on the problem and says - "The technology to produce lightweight foam materials with higher bulk modulus may not be far away." Clearly he thought it was coming and seemed to welcome it - bearing in mind he was involved in composite rod design for over 30 years.

If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't) then it would make sense to start looking at materials that have the properties we want rather than modifying materials that don't.

I tend to agree with that line of thinking - which is why cane rods continue to puzzle me
Custom grips, whether they be wood, bark, or fancy combination of stacked materials are not replacements for cork, they are viable cast-able, fish-able functional alternatives. Different nuance Irvine. Foam could replace cork if manufacturers can get the properties right and bring the cost of a decent grip down. Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Magnus

Re: "Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder."

Good point ...... I think custom builders are experimenting with these more because they like to make things ( and give their build character / originality ) than because they are trying to find an alternative to cork.

Cheers
Mike

[Irvine Ross]

Custom grips, whether they be wood, bark, or fancy combination of stacked materials are not replacements for cork, they are viable cast-able, fish-able functional alternatives. Different nuance Irvine. Foam could replace cork if manufacturers can get the properties right and bring the cost of a decent grip down. Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder.

Magnus

You do wonders for my education. I had to look up bulk modulus. Now I know what it means.

OK I guess the viability of the alternatives is in part a mater of person preference and I have said enough about mine.

I am surprised that a cheaper-but-just-as-good or a better-but-about-the-same-price  material has not yet been developed after decades of research. They have managed to produce some very fancy multi-layered soles for sports shoes so you would imagine that a handle for a fishing rod would be simple by comparison. Whether Q. suber has cracked it or not remains to be seen. I suspect if it was that good then Sage or Orvis would have bought it out and put a patent on it.

Cheers

Irvine

[Hamish Young]

Page 34 of the March issue of FF&FT might have the answer to cork.......

Magnus, know anything about them

[Mike Barrio]

Page 34 of the March issue of FF&FT might have the answer to cork.......

Magnus, know anything about them

Well done Hamish ..... You've just taken us back to the 1st post of this thread!      

Sandy and I have had this new product in our hands, but not on a rod and not fished with it though

Best wishes
Mike

[Magnus Angus]

 

Post 2 of this thread Hamish - yes I know about them and I have a sample on a rod if anyone would like to try it.

[Hamish Young]

Ahhh, so that's the same company then....... right, I would b interested in giving it a whirl 

[Magnus Angus]

Irvine

I am surprised that a cheaper-but-just-as-good or a better-but-about-the-same-price  material has not yet been developed after decades of research.

Read through this thread and you'll get some ideas of the resistance a new grip material faces as a potential replacement for cork.

As an aside - there's a super documentary DVD called The lost World of Mr Hardy - in that film Jim Hardy talks about the transition from Cane to Glass - Hardy felt forced to follow market trends and introduce glassfibre rods but didn't like them. He states they deliberately made bad glass rods, inferior to cane and well below what they knew glass could achieve. He also talks about Dick Walker's input to their patent on carbon fibre rods - where Walker specified the proportion of carbon in a rod, far too low because he didn't think he liked stiff rods and provided Hardy with a totally worthless patent.

The tackle trade may seem like it embraces new technology but in reality it's a very small industry. Some companies are getting more progressive in their thinking but many are run by individuals who stick with the tried and trusted until forced to change - even then it can seem like both individuals and companies deliberately try to delay change.

Back to grips - anyone recall Orvis running a series of rods (original Tridents I think) with vibration damping foam between the cork and blank.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Magnus

Yes, it was on the Tridents, I can remember Sandy repairing a handle on one and it took us a while to work out what the foam was for. An interesting concept

Cheers
Mike