Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Jim Eddie

Cork is history ?
« on: 09/02/2009 at 18:47 »
Just looking at an ad in this months FF & FT by a company called Bluemoonfishing (UK) Ltd , they say this (Q.Silver) is the future for fine fly rod grips.
Now I'm not a Luddite, but it has to be cork surely. There was documentary on SKY in the last couple of months about the Portugese cork forrests , they still give a living to many people in the area and are home to a diverse range of wildlife. All this could be lost if this product actually is the future.
It could never happen you say ? they probably said the same about Cane rods. Anyone seen this in the flesh or used it ?

 :z18     

Jim

Magnus Angus

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #1 on: 09/02/2009 at 19:37 »
Gee Jim it seems like you study every word - touch of snow induced cabin fever?

I've a couple of prototype foam grips and a built fly rod with that type of grip, two different materials - very smooth, tough and light. Plus I reviewed a Greys Competition fitted with a composite grip recently - rather heavy and hard.

You just need to look at the quality of cork on middling and low-priced rods to have a clear idea what this is about. We're getting a lot of rods now with relatively low grade grips, filled and marked cork - so the grip deteriorates quite rapidly over a season or two or with hard use. Even some premium rods come with grips which leave me wondering why the cork we had 20 years ago was so much better.

For rod grips, Duplon is currently the only mass market alternative to cork and it's really horrible, black squashy foam. If someone can match the characteristics of cork, touch, firmness, and make perfectly smooth comfortable grips at the right price it could significantly improve the product we get now and/or could simply nudge the cork industry into doing something about the quality of their product.

Magnus

Jim Eddie

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #2 on: 09/02/2009 at 19:40 »
Cabin fever indeed Magnus  :z4

You can understand how those guys in the Yukon used to murder each other in the winter and why Scandinavia has such a high suicde rate  :wink
 :z18

Jim

Irvine Ross

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #3 on: 09/02/2009 at 19:51 »
"O laith, laith, were our gude Scots lords
To weet their Q Silver-heel'd shoon!"

Doesn't have the  same ring about it somehow. I'd rather stick with cork :grin

Irvine

Sandy Nelson

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #4 on: 09/02/2009 at 22:10 »

You just need to look at the quality of cork on middling and low-priced rods to have a clear idea what this is about. We're getting a lot of rods now with relatively low grade grips, filled and marked cork - so the grip deteriorates quite rapidly over a season or two or with hard use. Even some premium rods come with grips which leave me wondering why the cork we had 20 years ago was so much better.



If you watch all the documentaries about cork, the change to substitute cork for wine bottles is causing big problems for the cork industry.

So why is there no really good cork available for fishing rods, if they are struggling to sell it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :z8 perhaps someone , somewhere, is playing games Eithe that or the cork farmers have changed the way they do things and are harvesting it in ways not condusive to good shives.

Who Knows. The Q-Silver type stuff i have seen was like the expanding foam you get out of a can for filling holes in walls, shaped into the shape of a handle. Awful stuff :z6

Sandy


Rob Brownfield

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #5 on: 09/02/2009 at 23:35 »
There are a few mass produced alternatives to cork that are available, but none of it has made the cross over to fly fishing. Some of the high quality EVA handles used on the top carp and spinning rods are warm to the touch, offer superb grip, transfer a lot ot the rods "feel" to the hand and are exceptionally hard wearing..but they are black and look like rubber, so I doubt fly anglers would ever be receptive to it.

There are different qualities of Duplon handle, some soft and squishy as MAgnus says, but some quite hard and dense, with a feel very much like cork..but those are expensive. I got some from Japan and they worked out around £20 each  :shock before postage..but they really were very nice indeed. They could be shaped just like cork and had that very slight compression that good cork has and not that much heavier.

As for the quality of cork, well, the demand for high quality wine corks had plumetted and so cork farmers have had to diversify to stay in business, and this means supplying the building trade with a lower grade of cork for tiles, floors etc. The rod trade has always got the surplus from the wine cork trade (hence sometimes supply was hard to find) but these days the handful of wine cork producers have very little spare. Gone are the days when every valley in France had a cork farmer for the local vineyards....as cassies dad found out. He owns a vineyard and has reluctantly gone over to cork composite corks..if that makes sense??

Magnus Angus

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #6 on: 10/02/2009 at 01:37 »
Sandy - you saw a prototype, that's not the stuff they're advertising as Q-Silver.

The accounts I get about cork and rod grips and the cork industry comes very second, third or fourth hand so I'm deeply distrusting. What I can see is the quality of cork used on rods and that's been falling over the past few years. Flor grade is in very short supply and all that grading seems to mean is the best available from the harvest - given a poor harvest the grade falls?

The cork composite grip I tried was very interesting. The simple hardness of that grip was uncomfortable, felt like it bruised my delicate hands. But very solid and tough - damned near indestructible by the sort of abuse to which cork grips are normally subject.

Sandy Nelson

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #7 on: 10/02/2009 at 05:49 »
Sandy - you saw a prototype, that's not the stuff they're advertising as Q-Silver.


Looks very similar from the pictures, but i'll believe you :z7.

You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.
It is a bit like a cane coloured carbon rod, i suppose, but......................................


As for the quality of cork, well, the demand for high quality wine corks had plumetted and so cork farmers have had to diversify to stay in business, and this means supplying the building trade with a lower grade of cork for tiles, floors etc. The rod trade has always got the surplus from the wine cork trade (hence sometimes supply was hard to find) but these days the handful of wine cork producers have very little spare. Gone are the days when every valley in France had a cork farmer for the local vineyards....as cassies dad found out. He owns a vineyard and has reluctantly gone over to cork composite corks..if that makes sense??

I get it, No surplus quality wine corks, because they aren't really making them. That makes sense of the situation, but you would think there would enough demand for someone to specialize in high quality rod cork :z8

Sandy

Rob Brownfield

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #8 on: 10/02/2009 at 10:12 »
You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.

Thats been tried before...from memory both Shakespeare and Masterline produced fly and spinning rods with cork coloured handles. A huge flop!

You can also buy Korkolon which is exactly what it says on the tin...Duplon made to look like cork. Here you go..a link..arrrgh!!! http://www.mudhole.com/docs/newprod/cmoose.html Please tell me you wont be using it ;)


I get it, No surplus quality wine corks, because they aren't really making them. That makes sense of the situation, but you would think there would enough demand for someone to specialize in high quality rod cork :z8

I seem to recall someone trying this, I think it was a UK custom rod builder about 8 years ago...but the crop failed due to an extremely wet summer or something and he went bust :(

Another place good cork came from was the logging industry. When they where cutting Teak and Lignum they needed cork "trunks" to help keep the heavy hard woods afloat when transporting them down river. They bound them up into rafts and at the end of the journey the cork logs where discarded.


Rob Brownfield

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #9 on: 10/02/2009 at 10:19 »
This is the stuff I use to "top and tail" my handles http://www.mudhole.com/Shop-Our-Catalog/Cork-Rings_2/Rubberized-Cork-Ring-500-ID




I strongly suspect its what Greys is using..or a derivative of it. As Magnus says, its hard, way too hard in my opinion for a complete handle.

Irvine Ross

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #10 on: 10/02/2009 at 10:39 »
Another place good cork came from was the logging industry. When they where cutting Teak and Lignum they needed cork "trunks" to help keep the heavy hard woods afloat when transporting them down river. They bound them up into rafts and at the end of the journey the cork logs where discarded.

Rob
The story about cork being used to float teak does not make sense.  ???

Cork comes from the bark of the cork oak. The timber, being oak, is quite heavy. Besides cork oak grows in southern Europe, especially Portugal. Teak and lignum are tropical timbers. I suspect they probably used balsa wood logs to float the heavy timbers and the story has got confused along the way.

By the way I found the advert. The product is called Q. suber not Q silver but the fancy writing makes it difficult to read. Q. suber is the short notation for Quercus suber which is the scientific name for cork oak. I wonder if they can copyright a name that is already in common usage?

OK I'll put my anorak away now. :grin

Irvine

Rob Brownfield

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #11 on: 10/02/2009 at 13:32 »
Sorry Irvine..I was getting confused..as always..it was Balsa wood that was used in logging..d'oh!! Appologies!

I used to make a lot of floats etc in days gone by and it became difficult to get good balsa..and that was why.

Got the two confused in my old age!  :oops

Magnus Angus

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #12 on: 10/02/2009 at 15:11 »
Quote
You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.
It is a bit like a cane coloured carbon rod, i suppose, but......................................

Rob's covered that. Oh and yes the Greys Competition grip uses the type of cork composite Rob showed - http://www.mudhole.com/New-Products/Exotic-Burl-Cork-Blocks

Thing we seem to be missing guys - the cork industry has had years to sort out supply and clearly they won't.


Mike Barrio

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #13 on: 10/02/2009 at 15:30 »
Interesting stuff :cool:

Hmmm, so might there be an opening for somebody to go to the growers and buy selected high quality cork and then supply it to the tackle industry? ..... a bit like Andy "Troutgrass" does with Tonkin cane :wink

This might work in rod building circles, but I'm not sure how you would sell it to the far east rod factories :z6

Yes, interesting :z3
Best wishes
Mike

Rob Brownfield

Re: Cork is history ?
« Reply #14 on: 10/02/2009 at 16:44 »
Thing we seem to be missing guys - the cork industry has had years to sort out supply and clearly they won't.

And why should they? Corks for rods were always a by product...the real money was in the billions and billons of wine bottle corks that they produced. See below as the length of time it takes to produce cork must have a major impact on it all.

Mike..
i think this answers your question..."A cork oak is first stripped at 25 years old, although the first harvest is not good enough to use. The trees can then be stripped every nine years."  and  "But they warn if the use of corks in wine bottles drops, the farmers will quickly remove the trees to make way for more profitable crops."

Quotes from a BBC news item on Portugals cork producers.



Its just not viable..you need thousands of acres that are rotated on a 9 year cycle...:(


 




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