Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Barry Robertson

River fishing on Sundays?
« on: 26/01/2009 at 14:31 »
Just out of curiousity,
Why are we not allowed to fish on rivers on sundays but we can fish on resrvoirs?
Does this rule only apply in Scotland?
I asked jeeves but today he was found out and had no answer  :z4

Cameron deBoth

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #1 on: 26/01/2009 at 15:04 »
Just out of curiousity,
Why are we not allowed to fish on rivers on sundays but we can fish on resrvoirs?
Does this rule only apply in Scotland?
I asked jeeves but today he was found out and had no answer  :z4

Isnt it something to with it being God day of rest or some shite like that...

Jim Eddie

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #2 on: 26/01/2009 at 15:20 »
It depends where you are Baz , for example you can fish the Ericht for trout on a Sunday (probably the best day as Salmon fishers can't)

There are different theories ,  but I think it go's back to our Presbyterian roots.

 :z18

Jim

ARF!!

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #3 on: 26/01/2009 at 15:27 »
what is the penalty if you are caught :z8

Hamish Young

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #4 on: 26/01/2009 at 15:47 »
Ahhhhh.... this old chestnut, I will try and explain  :shock

The Laws in England & Wales are markedly different, that’s a whole other topic.

You can legally fish for Brown Trout in Scotland on Sundays, but not for migratory species like Salmon or Sea Trout. Whilst there is extensive legislation that surrounds our migratory species, for example the Salmon Act or the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries - Consolidation (Scotland) Act 2003, the only non-civil law that truly applies to Brown Trout fishing are the various Protection Orders.

Therefore it is Civil Law that has a bearing on fishing for non migratory trout. Under the terms of Scottish Civil Law (in this respect) the right to give permission to fish for trout belongs with the riparian owner - that is usually, but not always, the local land owner.  As finding that owner can be a nightmare, seeking out that permission is often ignored by those who have faith in the ‘right to fish’ principals which is largely, but not exclusively, a fallacy.

Interestingly, as Salmon fishing rights are heritable titles (and may be held separately from ownership of the adjoining land) where that right to fish for migratory species is held separately from the land, the owner of the ‘heritable right’ has a legal right of access over property to exercise his/her right to fish for salmon or sea trout. Nice eh? That also means that the right to fish for Salmon (and Sea Trout) also carries with it the inferior right to fish for trout, but only if those rights are not exercised by the riparian owner. In the eyes of Scottish Law you could argue, therefore, that the right to fish for non-migratory trout is an inferior one. You have to love the law  :wink

There are stretches of common water throughout Scotland which have many and varied rules that apply to them, but as common water belonging to the ‘people’ then the ‘people’ have the right to fish (for trout) when they wish. If they wish to do so on a Sunday, they could, but only if they live in the area (for area read parish) that the common water was to be found...... confused yet? It gets better.
Now the reason why many, but not all, rivers in Scotland don’t allow trout fishing on Sundays is the myriad of different laws that apply. Where migratory fish are present in a river the criminal law/acts apply and have absolute precedence over any other legislation, this includes Sunday fishing for non-migratory trout because (as previously mentioned) that falls under Civil law. Sort of  :roll

Although the value of (and demand for) river trout fishing has increased hugely over the years, the principal legislation that applies to it is archaic and was formed with a heavy religious influence. The Church had much to do with the formation of many laws in Scotland and it is directly from here that the no fishing on the Sabbath stems from, as fishing for Salmon or Sea Trout was not allowed under the terms of law which I’ve already mentioned is ‘superior’. So, with no fishing for Salmon and Sea Trout in Scotland on the Sabbath trout fishing rights are directly affected by the ‘superior’ legislation.
So, in the main it is simpler for there to be no brown trout fishing on rivers in Scotland because of the Salmon Act. However, it’s not all doom and gloom as a riparian owner may exercise his/her right to fish for Brown Tout when they wish there are waters which allow Sunday fishing. It is beholden on the riparian owner to issue written permission to do so (that could easily be an angling club, the ADAA would be a good local example) and anyone challenged must show that they have permission and tackle only fit for trout (non-migratory) fishing.
It is this last part that is the key when it comes to rivers. If more riparian owners (or where the heritable and riparian are the same) exercised their right to fish on a Sunday then there would be far more accessible in Scotland than there is at present.  District fishery boards need only be advised that the riparian owner will be exercising their right, although if all the owners throughout the length of the river decided to do so then my understanding is that it would require a change in local bylaws. My knowledge tends to get a bit fuzzy at that point.

When it comes to reservoirs and lochs the rules are actually the same, but as most reservoirs (and many lochs) do not have a run of migratory salmonids the right to fish on a Sunday exists.

When it comes to penalties, if you are found to have been fishing on a Sunday for migratory species you are liable for criminal prosecution.
Likewise if you are found to have been fishing on a Sunday for trout where a Protection Order is in place without written permission you would be liable to criminal prosecution. If there is no Protection Order in place and you were found fishing on a Sunday without permission for Trout you would be liable under Civil Law.

Exactly what fines/ramifications that means depends on the sheriff  :shock

Jings  :shock I give in. I'm exhausted after all that typing  :wink

Hamish  :z3

PS - Do not take this as gospel, this is my understanding and isn't guaranteed to be 100% right - although I'm reasonably confident it's sound.

Barry Robertson

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #5 on: 26/01/2009 at 15:52 »
Thanks for that Hamish  :z16
Very intresting read  :wink

Rob Brownfield

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #6 on: 26/01/2009 at 16:49 »
Arrrrghhhh!!! So simple when its explained ;)

What confuses me is when a single river system is governed by different clubs/owners that have differing rules. The perfect example is the Council with the Inverurie beat. Stand on the bank at the convergence of the Urie and the Don and on a Sunday one step can mean the difference between a Criminal record or a perfectly legal days fishing. Why?

Then you have the issue of a protection order and some owners expecting all the benefits it brings, but then ignoring the small print such as "allowing fair access to the river". I am thinking of some beats that refuse to allow trout fishing or price it so high that they exclude folk, directly against the protection order.

Does beg the question, why not one governing board for the whole of scotland to guide and advise and act as mediator with the ability for individual salmon Boards to recommend a blanket rule on there catchment areas...thus preserving the local knowledge vital for river management.

Just a thought.

Hamish Young

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #7 on: 26/01/2009 at 17:12 »
Arrrrghhhh!!! So simple when its explained ;)

Indeed  :wink

What confuses me is when a single river system is governed by different clubs/owners that have differing rules. The perfect example is the Council with the Inverurie beat. Stand on the bank at the convergence of the Urie and the Don and on a Sunday one step can mean the difference between a Criminal record or a perfectly legal days fishing. Why?

The answer is in your first sentance there Rob  :z17

Then you have the issue of a protection order and some owners expecting all the benefits it brings, but then ignoring the small print such as "allowing fair access to the river". I am thinking of some beats that refuse to allow trout fishing or price it so high that they exclude folk, directly against the protection order.

Whole other topic, but slowly slowly catchey monkey  :wink Things are progressing on elements of that front  :cool:

Does beg the question, why not one governing board for the whole of scotland to guide and advise and act as mediator with the ability for individual salmon Boards to recommend a blanket rule on there catchment areas...thus preserving the local knowledge vital for river management.

Just a thought.

Within reason, my thoughts exactly. Financed by a Scottish Rod Licence perhaps :?

I'll just nip out and get my coat................................  :z4

Ben Dixon

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #8 on: 26/01/2009 at 20:12 »
Cheers Hamish, ties up the bits of info I had come accross over the years.  Bit backward in this day & age eh?


Does beg the question, why not one governing board for the whole of scotland to guide and advise and act as mediator with the ability for individual salmon Boards to recommend a blanket rule on there catchment areas...thus preserving the local knowledge vital for river management.

Just a thought.

Sound and practical thought Rob but I would not want a salmon fishery board recommending or ruling on trout fishing access, I could see trout fishing being discretly made more difficult and / or expensive. 

Cheers

Ben

Steven Sinclair

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #9 on: 26/01/2009 at 20:48 »
  Thanks for the indepth info Hamish,  this is always something that has bugged my happiness :mad

  Its not such a big issue for myself now as I work a month on month off rotation but for guys working 9-5 Monday to friday the addition of sunday river fishing would be greatly recieved in my opinion.

Iain Goolager

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #10 on: 26/01/2009 at 21:33 »
Quote
Isnt it something to with it being God day of rest or some shite like that...

Easy there young Cam  :z5- I'm a Christian  :z7

BUT....... it's every Sea-Trout fishers nightmare! If you work a standard working week then Saturday evening/ night may be the only chance you get to have a proper night session, alas as the hour approaches when your Korkers turn back into pumpkins it's time to pack up (or possibly be a bad boy) :cry

I've kind of got used to this 'law' and try to work around it - also I guess it leaves the Sunday to fish for Rainbows and boost that side of the economy.

 :z8 who knows

Iain

Rob Brownfield

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #11 on: 26/01/2009 at 21:44 »
Sound and practical thought Rob but I would not want a salmon fishery board recommending or ruling on trout fishing access, I could see trout fishing being discretly made more difficult and / or expensive. 

I used the Salmon Board as an example purely because they are in place. I don't think there is any doubt that some boards are against Trout fishing, as are some owners.

Barry Robertson

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #12 on: 26/01/2009 at 21:50 »
Indeed  :wink

 Financed by a Scottish Rod Licence perhaps :?

I'll just nip out and get my coat................................  :z4

Do you think a rod licencwe would improve anything?
I have my doubts  :z6

Sandy Nelson

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #13 on: 26/01/2009 at 22:00 »
Do you think a rod licence would improve anything?


This is actually a very good question, the jury is out as far as i'm concerned, some of the statistics are fascinating regarding fishing and Scotland and the amount of money it generates.
It seems going by our good Mag FF&FT, that Sea fishing makes more money for Scotland than Golf or freshwater fishing, How they could manage to Tax that though would remain to be seen.
Hopefully the powers that be will accept that fishing more than pulls its own weight as far as economics go.

Still back on topic, i like to fish for trout, the fact that on sunday on some waters i can, means i have more chances to teach the Yoof (very much one of these now :z6) some of the finer aspects to angling for our native species. Unfortunatley for Him we don't live near a proper river like i did at his age, then again i never had anyone to show me how to do it either, perhaps its all swings and roundabouts :z8

Sandy

Mike Barrio

Re: River fishing on Sundays?
« Reply #14 on: 26/01/2009 at 22:45 »
All the feedback from south of the border appears to suggest that the rod licence system has not been a great success there :z6

Best wishes
Mike

 




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