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Title: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 06, 2019, 20:57:39 PM
some one gave me a stack of New Statesman Mags, from earlier this year, so I have been slowly going through them, I came across an Article on the above,with a mention of Harriers, out of 57 satellite tagged over the last year, 48 have been killed or disappeared,can this be acceptable? and they have started on the hares again,what price  Scottish wildlife? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Ali Mcewan on August 07, 2019, 21:53:27 PM
I wonder who wrote the artical, I bet they have a anti shooting history behind them, no doubt with connections to Avery & Packham  :z4

until the data from these tags is delt with independently & made public, I take it with a pinch of salt.
I personally know a keeper who found rspb & police raking his hill, looking for a harrier thatís transmitter had stopped working, this was of course all made public.  Nothing was found, about 2 months later, he was speaking to the local Bobby & happened to ask what the out come was, turns out it re appeared 80 miles away in another county, this as expected wasnít made public, (nor the decency to let the guy know)  I wonder why.

Do you have any idea of the independent stats on successful harrier nests, on rspb-un keepered ground vs keepered?  Iím presuming not?
Like wise the Langholm moor project and the periods around it, show that on un managed land, vermin takes too high a toll on harrier eggs, chicks & fledglings, for the breed to even stay at level never mind increase.

Fact is, with out grouse moors, there would be very few, if any harriers left, despite whatís peddled about by some

Hares have been shot in big numbers year on year, this couldnít happen if it was true that the keepers wipe the hills of every hare,  it is benifical to tick control as well as protecting flora & fauna.   
The counts are a joke, done by city folk fresh out of uni, theyíll count a northeasterly face on a warm still day & come back say a month later with a cold north easterly wind & expect to see the same numbers, they donít think to go look on the lea side of the hill where the hares will be sitting happily out the wind :X1

Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Iain Stewart on August 08, 2019, 05:28:52 AM
I wonder who wrote the artical, I bet they have a anti shooting history behind them, no doubt with connections to Avery & Packham  :z4

until the data from these tags is delt with independently & made public, I take it with a pinch of salt.
I personally know a keeper who found rspb & police raking his hill, looking for a harrier thatís transmitter had stopped working, this was of course all made public.  Nothing was found, about 2 months later, he was speaking to the local Bobby & happened to ask what the out come was, turns out it re appeared 80 miles away in another county, this as expected wasnít made public, (nor the decency to let the guy know)  I wonder why.

Do you have any idea of the independent stats on successful harrier nests, on rspb-un keepered ground vs keepered?  Iím presuming not?
Like wise the Langholm moor project and the periods around it, show that on un managed land, vermin takes too high a toll on harrier eggs, chicks & fledglings, for the breed to even stay at level never mind increase.

Fact is, with out grouse moors, there would be very few, if any harriers left, despite whatís peddled about by some

Hares have been shot in big numbers year on year, this couldnít happen if it was true that the keepers wipe the hills of every hare,  it is benifical to tick control as well as protecting flora & fauna.   
The counts are a joke, done by city folk fresh out of uni, theyíll count a northeasterly face on a warm still day & come back say a month later with a cold north easterly wind & expect to see the same numbers, they donít think to go look on the lea side of the hill where the hares will be sitting happily out the wind :X1

Thanks Ali for some common sense. I Heard some interwoven pod casts about charities recently such as RSPB and it turned out they may not want successful reintroductions, as successes donít sell memberships. Stories of woe and misery pull the heart strings and continue to create subscriptions and these have become corporate businesses needing to feed themselves.
Most of this is propaganda issued by people without factual evidence. Take the General License in engerland. Did anyone hear national news when it was all resolved and legal again?? Nope. Doesnít sell to say sorry got it wrong that was a cluster.
Grouse moors benefit abody. Plenty hill walkers use the roads cut across the hillside, no one would burn the heather if there was no money in it, leaving a barren wasteland as nothing lives in old heather. A local garage said to me he wouldnít survive without the estates and their grouse as he maintains a fleet of 30 odd land rovers.
For me these arguments are tantamount to nothing more than reverse snobbery towards those who can. However just saying as one who has worked in the countryside most of my life.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 08, 2019, 08:50:06 AM
Was a member of a grouse syndicate past Eaglesham. There were plenty of harriers/owls/curlew/redshank and many more. Reason the keeper Iain killed around 200 foxes each year plus many crows  that made there way from the surrounding countryside. Now all gone because on the death of the owner the moor was sold off and most of it was sold for forestry. The Whitelee wind farm has been built on another part of the moor. Used to see harriers often along the river I fish but no longer. The white grass has all been ploughed up. A lot of the ground nesting birds are also gone because of the sheep that eat the grass to close to the ground and right into the hedges.
Why the R.S.P.B. and the B.T.O. and the shooters can not all get together for the good of the wildlife is a mystery to me.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 09, 2019, 14:05:49 PM
the author is a man called Guy Shrubsole,so many conflicting reports, so how would 40+ harriers just disappear? Ok sheep stocks have a lot to answer for as far a nesting birds go, we don't see Merlins round here and the Harriers are quite scarce, but all the Gamies aren't that lilywhite,I know the RSPB are a bunch of interfering so& So's, but I,m curious,where does the £4Million pound go to that the landowners get?  just asking , Derek Roxborough   
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Duncan Inglis on August 10, 2019, 09:05:59 AM
You just need to look at moorland that isnít managed, after very few years they turn into deserts covered in rank Heather. Donít get me wrong the shooting industry did not have a good record a few years ago but the modern estate owner and their game keepers are much much more aware and responsible.
Yes mountain hare numbers are controlled but again on the estates Iím aware of this is only done when numbers increase to a level that cannot be sustained due to tick numbers etc.
Have a look at estates that have been taken over by the likes of the RSPB, Langholm for example, within years they are deserts devoid of bird life.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 10, 2019, 12:20:41 PM
how do you describe a desert? we have muir burn here year after year , and the burn has created a desert, with only rank grass and sedge,I would think that grouse and other birds would prefer heather cover, the moors are burnt to suit the shooters, surely hares and grouse have co-existed for millennia,as for the tic which species is the vector?tics have no preference, it's blood they are after, it's a bit like the Badger argument, badgers can carry Bovine TB but they get it from Infected cows, so do tics originate from Grouse or hares, or even Red Deer, I am only curious after reading Guy Shrubsoles article, I am not a great liker of the RSPB, they are the great Interferers, our local laird wont let them on his estate, and the harriers  on Orkney have suffered with the protection of the Bonxies, it seems as though it's one of lifes Imponderables :z18 Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Ali Mcewan on August 10, 2019, 15:27:01 PM
Derek, I suggest you  get out and look around moors, other than the one local to you.  Take a 10 minute look through ďAngus glens moorland groupĒ  and you will see just how much the estates do & just how much so called persecuted birds there actually is  on the hills, along with all the red listed waders etc.
As has been mentioned, a un-managed moor, turns rank and is no good to man nor beast!!
Look at the damage the wild fires did last year, most on un managed moors.

However, I think youíve made youíre mind up going by the content of youíre posts  :z16
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 10, 2019, 21:32:32 PM
Make no presumptions Ali,I do manage to get out some,I see the strip burning round Drumochter and down the A9,also the management on the North York Moors,where I worked for a while, I have been asked to leave a moor while we were doing the coast to coast, this was out of season, so what harm were we doing, I am partial to a grouse, but walking up , not driven and this was on an unmanaged moor, where the grouse etc. can hide,as I mentioned Grouse and Mountain hares have co-existed for millennia, so is the problem Mans interference? or what?we have woodland schemes here so the Heather Is waste high, but there are still grouse, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Ali Mcewan on August 11, 2019, 08:57:33 AM
Sorry Derek,  but you have drifted away from your original point.

The recent 100% failure of the reintroduction of the 3 eagles in southern Scotland shows what can happen,  1 killed by another eagle, 1 injured so bad itís been able to be re captured, and the other eagle is missing presumed dead. 
Being such a big project, these eagles will have been tagged. I ask, why canít they find the missing eagle, well itís because these tags are far from reliable & only the data that suits the anti agenda is ever released!!
But when we question the secret data & reliability of tags when a estate is accused of persecution, we are told the tags are almost fail safe  :X2. Fact is, a lot of bop die naturally, tags stop working etc yes there are bad apples in keepering, just like every trade, but its far far from what it was 20 years ago.

Did you take the time to read through the Langholm moor project.
Can you tell me after reading it you still think harriers do better on managed moors compared to un managed ones?? What are your thoughts on the papers??



Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 11, 2019, 13:33:24 PM
why do you think I drifted away? No I haven't read or heard of the Langholm papers, my intial comments came from reading an article in an April New Statesman, I know nature is red in tooth and claw, there must have been some natural competition with the eagles, probably over territory, I have watched eagles fighting , probably for encroaching on anothers bit of space, in todays Observer there is an article about Harriers, mainly on the moors in England,but a conflict between Natural England and the RSPB, about the success or not of the species, I just think we should do more to ensure the continuation of the species, what ever you think there are some who would like them to be done away with, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Duncan Inglis on August 11, 2019, 19:19:19 PM
Derek, mass burns do no good what so ever, moors should be a mosaic of heather grass etc that provides cover, areas to feed etc etc. When heather gets rank and deep nothing can really survive in it. Itís too rough and coarse to provide food and too deep for cover for many bird species. I was told by a retired keeper that birds feeding on short young heather and grass shouldnít have to go more than 30yds for cover, be that from weather or predators.
In my opinion mass forestry blocks of conifers are the very worst use of moorland, after a few years they are sterile.
Finally correcting done heather burning protects the moors from mass fires like those we saw earlier this year.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 11, 2019, 19:51:43 PM
It is a sad state of things that the R.S.P.B. and all the others including keepers/walkers etc. can not get together as we all have much the same interests in the wildlife. Possibly some like members of the various departments want to empire build. Much the same as all the salmon groups that could get together.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 12, 2019, 12:57:14 PM
on Radio Scotland Phone in this morning a guy was saying visitors come to see managed Moorland, it would be difficult for beaters to flush grouse from a wild rank moorland, as the grouse can burrow away under the rank growth, hence the strip management, I have no issue with a walk up shoot, but a driven shoot seems a bit over the top, some one in todays paper says that the shoots are worth £155 million, so why does the Scot Gov put £4 million to the Land owners,there is a lot of misinformation out there, who is right? who will tell the truth? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 12, 2019, 17:04:39 PM
Grouse need all heights of heather to survive. They can tunnel over 7 feet into the long stuff as one knows when ones G.S.P. points one and it gets up behind you. You are never going to change closed minds no matter who. Such a pity  the way this world goes.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 12, 2019, 17:14:06 PM
as far as I go you are preaching to the already converted, the muir burn is not for the benefit of the grouse or any other birds, harriers won't nest on open ground we lost our local merlins because of regular burning.not for Grouse but for sheep ,all these quangos (?) have their own agendas,I use Quango because these are the people that a government refers to when there are questions,I have been almost caught twice in a burn because not enough attention was paid, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 13, 2019, 12:43:30 PM
piece on STV last night about Grouse shooting , showed a walk up shoot in Glen Clova, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: James Laraway on August 13, 2019, 14:19:30 PM
I see that the labour party care trying to get stuck into grouse shooting - mainly I suspect as it is viewed as a sport for the 'rich and famous'

the issue is, if you get rid of the shooting then what do you replace it with that will generate jobs ? The answer is not a lot as the ground is not fertile so it would be left abandoned.

Grouse shooting may not be everyone's cup of tea but it does help to manage the countryside ( a bit like farming does) and it employs people in areas where there are not many jobs.

the problem is that if the 'anti's' get rod of one 'blood sport' then they will just turn their attention to fishing, particulary salmon fishing as they view that as the 'preserve of the rich' also....
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Ali Mcewan on August 13, 2019, 14:20:53 PM
Derek,  if youíd be so kind as to go away and read the Langholm moor project papers that I mentioned in my first post, so you can gather some independent facts on the subject, rather than mid truths from clips you read or hear in the media.
Then you will appreciate how benifical driven grouse is to the harrier..
Fact is with out keepered moors, the harrier would be in real shit! Even with the tiny bad element within the keepering world.


Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 13, 2019, 17:02:20 PM
what you are saying Ali is that I cant have an independent view?you mistake me, I am not against grouse shooting, only the driven shoot, that's the one that manicures the hills to make it easier to shoot grouse,so I understand that Jobs are Important , I live in a place where we lost the gillies jobs on Loch Maree ,due to fish farms,I was one of them. the loss of salmon fishing as you say just wont happen, think of the massive amount of gear Manufacture involved, will the Scot Gov support that, when the Majority of rivers are now C&R, It might be the way forward for Driven Grouse ? I do know the Keepers on the North York moors like the Harriers as they keep the Vermin down, it doesn't seem that way on the Scottish moors, when we lose Eagles and Harriers, with no real explanation, the Langholm area may be better managed or more fore thought used but it is one area with a more open view of the problem, can it be compared with the estates in the central highlands? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Duncan Inglis on August 14, 2019, 09:37:19 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/31/grouse-moors-subsidised-taxpayers-shooting-moorland

Makes some interesting points.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 14, 2019, 21:16:50 PM
Wow! So the fact that the grouse "industry" is worth £155 million,in tne papers the other day, means that they still want £4 million. So why? if they are putting that much into the economy, I wonder how much that eagle with the trap on its leg is worth( photo in todays paper) taken in Aberdeenshire,there is an Imbalance somewhere,and it is on manicured Grouse moors, life is too short :z13
Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 14, 2019, 22:16:48 PM
Harriers were only one of many other birds that bred on the moors. Same moors are now forestry or wind farms and the birds have gone. Have shot grouse in the butts and walked up and enjoyed both. Watching the beaters in the distance coming closer and the coveys rising and dropping down in front of the butts. Watching all the small birds flying about and the owls hunting is all part of the days pleasure.
To me stopping grouse shooting is nothing to do with the grouse but is to do mainly with the toffs.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Duncan Inglis on August 15, 2019, 07:51:24 AM
100% correct Bob but I donít think youíll ever change the mind of Derek or the likes of Packham and co, they have a totally different agenda. If they ever get their way the current moorland environment and wildlife it supports will be lost and by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late, it will be gone for ever.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 15, 2019, 08:59:37 AM
Have posted in the past that I do not think that the committee members of the R,S.P.B. could tell the difference between a crow and a sea gull. Anyone that doubts that grouse moors are good for birds of prey and others should open there eyes and take a walk round a large wind farm. Heaps of young heather were the ground has been disturbed and the odd grouse. Very few if any hares or anything else.
Clay pigeon shooting is completely different from game shooting. Know a person that gets 96 out of a hundred clays most times. What is the point of that.
Until we all sit down together and look at the good of the wildlife we will all lose. There is no place in modern farming for wildlife so for the creatures that we want to see we will have to decide what is more important  food or wildlife. If we choose food then the grouse moors will be the only managed land that can support any wildlife and that includes harriers.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Hamish Young on August 15, 2019, 09:57:25 AM
Probably important we retain some perspective here;  there is really very little ground in the UK that has not been (or currently is) a managed / artifical / altered environment.
How our forebears created the country 'sporting environment' we live in is largely immaterial, but the traditions (particularly the sporting traditions) that were established then and continue now are divisive in many ways and are often seen as demonstrable evidence of a dated class system.
I digress - when it comes to 'Grouse' moors we are talking about a managed environment that has been carefully maintained in many ways to help the Grouse thrive. When we look at 'Salmon' rivers considerable infrastructure was put in place to improve pools, create pools, develop means to improve catches.
So the Grouse and Salmon have a common theme, people have tried to increase the populations and improve the potential of a shot or a catch. Where else have we done that.... Farming :? Yup. Reality is anywhere where homo sapiens want something they'll create it somehow then manage it.

So what was there before all this land husbandry :? Well that's probably the bigger question.
I don't subscribe to the somewhat utopian or naive view that nature will return things to the way they were. Nature can't, because we've f*cked with it too much, but it can adapt and create a new ecosystem. We can guess and we can let nature 'do its thing' but that doesn't mean what fills the void is indicative of what once was, all it means is that when you stop doing one thing another will take over - it may not be what you want or need, but it's what you're going to get becuase it's all that's going to happen.

You only have to look at our current PM to see the truth in that.

Is there a way forward :? I think you have to define what's desirable and the outcome folk want. I don't shoot these days and I've never been on a 'proper' grouse shoot, but I know plenty of folk who have and who make their living from supporting the sport.
We're not going to be in the position that the R.S.P.B and the sporting/landowning 'stakeholders' are ever going to sing from the same hymn sheet - their positions are too entrenched and so diametrically opposed that simply cannot happen.

Where do I sit on this :? I expect Chris Packham has a poster on his office wall of beavers, bears, wolves and Dodos - possibly some dinosaurs too.

H
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 15, 2019, 12:22:50 PM
100% correct Bob but I donít think youíll ever change the mind of Derek or the likes of Packham and co, they have a totally different agenda. If they ever get their way the current moorland environment and wildlife it supports will be lost and by the time they realise their mistake it will be too late, it will be gone for ever.
Don't equate me with Packham, how do you describe the current moorland environment?it's managed purely for the shooters ,with clear burn to open the ground for the beaters, some one said that the visitors come to see managed moorland  Eh?I worked for SNH for a while and the people I spoke to wanted wild unspoiled areas,I have no issue with hunting, only the way it's done. you're telling me that Current moorland management is beneficial to  ground nesting Raptors? one guy a couple of weeks back said they had hobbies on their land that must be a first for the area, nesting as they do in scattered woodland, I much prefer to see walk up shooting , rather that the mass slaughter of the driven shoot, I don't have a lot of time for the RSPB, we are each entitled to our own views, as it should be , have you  an opinion of the Golden eagle with a trap on its leg pictured in the papers yesterday and on the stv news the other night?
because if that's the way moors are managed then I'm against it
Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: James Laraway on August 15, 2019, 15:19:00 PM
if you  have a think about it managed grouse moorland is no different from the southern English chalkstreams.

they were originally marshes, but over time and with much effort they were sculpted into 'artificial' rivers by diverting flows, building artificial banks etc.

Would we get rid of them now ? Er no.

As with everything there is a balance to be struck,

Grouse moors tend to be in areas where the is little opportunity to either do anything else with the land and there is also little employment. If we want to stop depopulation of areas there needs to be employment - and game-keepering and grouse shooting does just that. Sure, its not a huge number of jobs and they are not the best paid but they are jobs. Plus the money generated helps keep the estates financially afloat ( when I say afloat im sure almost all estates are loss making so it helps offset some of the losses).

I believe ( correct me if I am wrong) that grouse are not bred in captivity and released for shooting  - unlike pheasants for example.

So I would have thought that the 'natural' target for the 'antis' would be pheasant shoots where they do shoot hundreds of birds a day ( the birds being 'stocked' , 'stupid' and probably easy to shoot).

But no, they focus on grouse shooting . Why ? Probably because it is seem as the preserve of 'the rich' ( which it probably is to a large extent)

Walked up grouse is more within the reach of the 'working man' .

As for the golden eagle, IF its legs are caught in a trap then that is horrible - but of course you cant see that in the picture. The eagle may have picked up an animal which was already stuck in the trap.

On my way to some hill lochs  I have come across these 'gin-like' traps. They are usually within artificial tunnels to stop the raptors ( or sheep)  getting trapped. The traps I have seen are on farmland and NOT on grouse moors. Frankly im amazed they are still allowed as they do strike me as very cruel and there has to be a better way of controlling 'pests'

A lot of what is in the news now from the likes of Packham and the RSPB is purely to try and envoke public outrage. Any positive effects of managed moorland are conveniently forgotten. Not the way it should be, but its just the way of things these days sadly...


Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 15, 2019, 21:37:57 PM
James the grouse moor owners say £155million goes into the economy, so why do they need £4million of a grant? . why the manicured moors? this isn't for the benefit of the grouse but for the convenience of the beaters, grouse have existed on un managed moors since Noah was a lad and they are still here, they co-existed with the Mountain hare, perhaps in those days they were immune to Tick born fever, who knows?, I know man has altered the land until very little , if any,truly wild  land exists, I know jobs are at a premium in rural areas, but how many are there on grouse moors, really? a couple of keepers and some summer time students?I didn't come down with the last shower of rain, the Eagle with the trap actually has the trap on it's leg ,I,m sorry if my attitude offends you , but I am entitled to my opinions , as are you ,but we must agree to disagree, life is too short, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Duncan Inglis on August 15, 2019, 22:27:45 PM
Last comment from me on this
1. The £4m is in effect a farming subsidy paid for the herds of sheep run by the estates on their moor, read the article I posted.
2. Heather is burned to provide a variety of habitat that the grouse and other birds, animals etc that are on the moors, NOT for the benefit of beaters.
3. Walked up shooting, which as an aside I love, wouldnít bring in enough income to support and help finance the estates.
4. Driven shooting of grouse is also used as a management tool. Numerous counts are carried out by the keepers not only to assess if there is a viable surplus but also to access the ratio of old to young grouse. Too many older birds is not good for  the overall health of the grouse stock.
5.  Proof of this management is the cancelling of any grouse shooting on a number of estates over the last couple of years. Nobody compensates the estates for the substantial loss of income.
6. The poor grouse numbers in recent years has predominantly been caused by poor weather in the spring, the beast from the east etc. The weather hit at the time the young grouse were too big to get shelter from the hen and too small to survive a week plus of cold wet weather.
7.  With both walkup and driven shoots on properly managed moors, samples of the shot birds are checked to assess the strongyle worm numbers carried by the birds. High worm counts ultimately lead to the death of the carriers, these carriers tend to be older birds. Unfortunately with high worm counts the worm is passed to the younger birds if not controlled.
8. With properly managed shooting with experienced guns who are properly briefed its possible to pick out the older grouse, thus helping the overall health of the grouse stock on the moor.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: James Laraway on August 16, 2019, 11:01:35 AM
James the grouse moor owners say £155million goes into the economy, so why do they need £4million of a grant? . why the manicured moors? this isn't for the benefit of the grouse but for the convenience of the beaters, grouse have existed on un managed moors since Noah was a lad and they are still here, they co-existed with the Mountain hare, perhaps in those days they were immune to Tick born fever, who knows?, I know man has altered the land until very little , if any,truly wild  land exists, I know jobs are at a premium in rural areas, but how many are there on grouse moors, really? a couple of keepers and some summer time students?I didn't come down with the last shower of rain, the Eagle with the trap actually has the trap on it's leg ,I,m sorry if my attitude offends you , but I am entitled to my opinions , as are you ,but we must agree to disagree, life is too short, Derek Roxborough

you attitude most certainly does not offend me in any way Derek. We all have our views.
You clearly grew up in the countryside so have some very valuable perspectives and views.
Managed moors I don't have an issue with. Should they get subsidies ? Sadly almost everything is subsidised these days - even through the people who get the subsidies are super rich and don't need the money.
As for the eagle photo, if  it idoes have a trap on its leg that is very sad and I hope it can be caught and saved. Im just very dubious of anything that is posted on the internet these days - are there are so many people willing to fake things to stir up trouble..
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 16, 2019, 14:34:02 PM
north Yorks Moors do have muir burn but not to the same extent as the central Highlands, read my post about moorland manicures, Grouse and other moorland creatures have been quite happy to live and thrive on these moors for Millenia, before man could use more than a hawk to get a grouse, even when early firearms were around , flintlocks had a flash before the actual explosion this gave  a warning of sorts to the birds and other animals,so grouse lived happily with out mans interference,don't try and blow smoke and make me think that grouse couldn't survive with out mans intervention, at my age I'm not so gullible, we lost harriers and merlins here because of the increase in sheepstock and the Idea that burning off would benefit the sheep, burning so much that about 12 years ago it went into the peat and burned for 7 or 8weeks
this was done by crofters, our club lost a boat ,due to this burning, not for grouse but for sheep, if , as you said the £4mill. was a farming subsidy then it was not  made clear on the news only that it was a payment to the estates, after living working and observing for over 50years in the highlands, I don't just accept all I see or hear,an example was when I worked in a hatchery, and we were told of the thousands of jobs in the salmon farming industry, as the job I had took me to most of the fish farms through out the north, where , if there was 20 people employed , after multilplying this by the no. of sites came to less than 2,500, and there were sites with a lot less than 20, some times only 5 or 6, I use this as an example of misinformation around, and I know it works both ways, I have been away from fishing because of an injury , but I am hoping to get back to it very very soon, like this weekend given the weather, :z12
Derek Roxborough 
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 16, 2019, 21:30:01 PM
Without muirburn there would be nothing but dead heather. If you ever see the damage that the heather beetle does  and how the land is after it you would be wanting the heather strip burned as at present. Sheep would have no grass as the heather just chocks everything else.
The traps mentioned earlier in tunnels are not gin traps which have been illegal since 1956. They probly were Fenn traps which kill instantly if properly set.
I know that the chances of both sides [R.S.P.B. and moorland owners] getting together is highly unlikely but one can live in hope.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 16, 2019, 21:34:12 PM
you attitude most certainly does not offend me in any way Derek. We all have our views.
You clearly grew up in the countryside so have some very valuable perspectives and views.
Managed moors I don't have an issue with. Should they get subsidies ? Sadly almost everything is subsidised these days - even through the people who get the subsidies are super rich and don't need the money.
As for the eagle photo, if  it idoes have a trap on its leg that is very sad and I hope it can be caught and saved. Im just very dubious of anything that is posted on the internet these days - are there are so many people willing to fake things to stir up trouble..
the eagle photo was in the papers and on the STV news the other night
Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 16, 2019, 21:40:53 PM
Without muirburn there would be nothing but dead heather. If you ever see the damage that the heather beetle does  and how the land is after it you would be wanting the heather strip burned as at present. Sheep would have no grass as the heather just chocks everything else.
The traps mentioned earlier in tunnels are not gin traps which have been illegal since 1956. They probly were Fenn traps which kill instantly if properly set.
I know that the chances of both sides [R.S.P.B. and moorland owners] getting together is highly unlikely but one can live in hope.
Bob.
the heather on the loch Maree Islands is thriving without being Burnt , OK it's about 5ft high in places with stems about  1 inch or more thick, and on the new afforestation it's  about the same and the grouse seem to like it, it would seem it's only humans that don't like it , it's a bugger to walk in but not much  worse than walking through burnt heather which knocks hell out of yer boots, Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Bob Mitchell on August 17, 2019, 08:26:07 AM
Have been shooting/working on moors for to many years.
Is there any harriers on your island.
Good luck.
Bob.
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 17, 2019, 11:55:53 AM
not particularly a shooter, I have no issues with people who shoot for the pot, I have done this in the past, I have walked on much moorland through out the UK , and for the  last 50+ years in the highlands, I have eyes and can see what is going on, any one that tells me that the moors are managed to benefit the Grouse are Havering,     :z12      D W Roxborough
Title: Re: Managing Grouse moors
Post by: Derek Roxborough on August 19, 2019, 17:02:45 PM
no but we have Sea eagles and Black throated Divers and occasional Rough legged buzzards, the harriers that nested near us nested in mature heather ,it's what gave them suitable cover, but regular burning and increased sheepstock , made it difficult for them,and the merlins, Derek Roxborough