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Home => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Terryll Monroe on December 03, 2018, 16:18:46 PM

Title: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Terryll Monroe on December 03, 2018, 16:18:46 PM
I looked to see if you all have posted this, and I didn't see anything, so I thought I'd share this information if you didn't already know.

I just quickly copied the article found in BBC News.

A distinct "species" of brown trout that has never been reported before has been discovered in a Perthshire loch.

The specimen was one of four species of the fish found in Loch Laidon, suggesting biodiversity in freshwater habitats is greater than first thought.

The new species differs from the common form in having lighter skin, and a larger mouth and eyes.

It was discovered by a team from Inverness College, which is part of the University of the Highlands & Islands.

The study, led by Prof Eric Verspoor, found four genetically, ecologically and visually distinctive species that have evolved in the loch over the last 10,000 years.

One of the species, a "Profundal Benthivore", has not as yet been reported to occur in any other loch in the brown trout's native range.

It inhabits the deep, dark waters of the loch where little light penetrates and feeds on organisms on the loch bottom.

Prof Verspoor, director of the college's Rivers and Lochs Institute, said: "This is essentially a distinct species of brown trout, never before reported, and the total number of forms found in Loch Laidon is the highest number so far found in a single lake.

"While that in itself is exciting, what's more significant is that the study strongly suggests that the amount of biodiversity in Scotland's lochs, and indeed many of the freshwater lakes in the northern hemisphere, has been massively underestimated.

"This is because, unfortunately, few of our lochs have so far been studied with methods such as those we employed that are better able to resolve such diversity when it exists.

"Thus findings such as those for Loch Laidon may well be the tip of a biodiversity iceberg in Scottish and other northern lakes; the true size of this iceberg will only become clear once we study more lakes using methods such as those we employed."

The research on the Laidon trout by Professor Verspoor and Dr Mark Coulson, of the Rivers and Lochs Institute, and co-workers was published in the journal Freshwater Biology.





Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 05, 2018, 08:22:25 AM
It's an interesting article which I had read elsewhere too.

Does tend to take you down the route of asking:

1. Are Sea Trout a different species :?
2. Are Ferox :?
3. OK, what about 'Gilaroo' Trout :?
4. Alrighty then, Dollaghan :?
5. Fine.... so how about Sonaghan :?

It's a mystery  :wink

H
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: James Craig on December 05, 2018, 09:53:27 AM
Semantics aside, Trout of the World by James Prosek is both fascinating and beautiful. One of my favourite books fishing related or not.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Rob Brownfield on December 06, 2018, 08:26:21 AM
It's an interesting article which I had read elsewhere too.

Does tend to take you down the route of asking:

1. Are Sea Trout a different species :?
2. Are Ferox :?
3. OK, what about 'Gilaroo' Trout :?
4. Alrighty then, Dollaghan :?
5. Fine.... so how about Sonaghan :?

It's a mystery  :wink

H

I can't help think that this "species" tag is a bit misleading.

"Lighter skin and larger mouth and eyes...."

Imagine if we looked at humans and said "oh, they have lighter skin and blue eyes, they are a different species".

Genetic variation, yes, new species? Nope!
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 06, 2018, 17:43:32 PM
Aye, pretty much my thoughts Rob  :wink
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Terry Coging on December 06, 2018, 18:29:29 PM
I am also confused  about this 'species' thing.  A fishes habitat dictates it's features. Even the season does that too.  An early season Gillaroo looks different to a Summer fish. Even different parts of the Lough produce fish of varying colour. Where do we draw the line between 'species'?

Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Rob Brownfield on December 07, 2018, 08:48:06 AM
I asked a scientist.....the joys of living with one lol....

Species....basically something that is similar in appearance and capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. So, Humand are a species, but we have variations.

So, I would guess that if it is a new "species" then it cannot interbreed with Brown Trout.

I have to say, some of the recent "science" story's from the BBC have been very misleading or inaccurate. One that springs to mind is the "discovery" that if you break off a bit of hard coral, it will regrow. This means you can take "cuttings" and re-populate coral reefs.

Trouble is, the Aquarium hobby has been doing this for some 40 years, its called "fragging".  It is actually big business with companies setting up fragging factories to supply no only the hobby but to re-populate the reefs.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Terryll Monroe on December 07, 2018, 14:22:04 PM
I asked a scientist.....the joys of living with one lol....

Species....basically something that is similar in appearance and capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. So, Humans are a species, but we have variations.

So, I would guess that if it is a new "species" then it cannot interbreed with Brown Trout.

That is the best ever definition of species I have ever heard. 

So yes, if it is a new species, it should not be able to interbreed.  But that leads to the question; because I'm not a scientist,  but they can take a walleye and a sauger and make a saugeye,  and take a white bass and a striped bass and make a wiper.  But these fish, saugeye and wipers are man made.  This new species of brown isn't.  And obviously it can breed unlike hybrid fish like the tiger musky,  saugeye and other man made frankensteinish fish. 

It could very well be just a variation.  I know large mouth bass when in deep water lose their color,  but when they hang in the shallows for awhile they become a beautiful color green with black markings.  But their eyes don't get bigger or smaller.  Walleye have large eyes because they like to hang on the bottom, but they will also darken up when the come into shallow water.

I'd like to hear more if they come up with anything else.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Euan Innes on December 07, 2018, 17:49:16 PM
"I have to say, some of the recent "science" story's from the BBC have been very misleading or inaccurate."
Surely not Rob..... :mad :mad :mad

A few years back I fished Loch Beannach up by Lochinver, and a splendid day it was too. Of the 30+ troot that happened to like what I was chucking at them, they were all a variation of the basic brown trout. Some were more golden, some a bit silver, some with more spots, some with less and some with a brighter or darker red on the spots.
The one that stands out most was not huge, not acrobatic and not malformed in any way. It was almost black! I had drifted down the east side of the big island and I made a heading change towards the south eastern shore and I noticed a deep dark hole with two boulders on the shore making a small amphitheatre. My brain said "there's a troot in there", my arm cast the line and the blackest troot I have ever seen grabbed my Claret Bumble.
A new species? Nope, just a Predator style camouflage!. Trout blend in and those changes are passed on in the genes.
He was only just under the pound but I was chuffed that I could spot where a likely troot would live and more chuffed on finding a "new species" :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4.

Euan
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Bob Mitchell on December 11, 2018, 09:58:12 AM
At one time Loch Leven fish were stocked all over the world. Remember  that they were bars of silver. Wonder what happened to them.
Bob.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Rob Brownfield on December 11, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
At one time Loch Leven fish were stocked all over the world. Remember  that they were bars of silver. Wonder what happened to them.
Bob.

That's what Loch of Skene was stocked with originally.

With the continued eutrophication of the loch I fear there are not many left :(

Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 11, 2018, 22:41:55 PM
the early Observers series of books had all the trout variations but then they were all thought to be just environmental variations and they were left out of future publications,just shows you? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 12, 2018, 14:55:00 PM
I confess that I dismiss the concept that these fish are a 'new species' I see them as a strain which seems far more reasonable to me and fits in better with my undertanding of 'how things are' and indeed how adaptable our Trout are to their environment.  I'd maintain that is equally a good representation of good bio-diversity.

I can cope with the 'Laidon benthic strain' of Brown trout,  that's reasonable.
I cannot deal with the idea of calling that a new species Salmo Laidon Benthivourous (possibly the right Latin  :? :!) becuase it's a Brown Trout that has adapted to specific conditions in its environment  :wink

H
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Terry Coging on December 12, 2018, 17:26:32 PM
Are black, white, yellow and brown people all of a different species? I don't think so! We have an amazing diversity and we interbreed.  Why are trout so special that we call a slightly different shape or colour a 'new species'? The cynical me thinks it may be due to scientists having to strengthen their claims to get funding and I don't blame them for that if it is the only way. The research is to be encouraged, but the claims?
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 12, 2018, 21:37:39 PM
Ah! fishery scientists what have they ever done for us? :X2 Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 13, 2018, 17:36:31 PM
Ah! fishery scientists what have they ever done for us? :X2 Derek Roxborough
We stand a real chance of multi-quoting Monty Python here  :z4 :z18
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Allan Liddle on December 15, 2018, 09:58:58 AM
I can't help think that this "species" tag is a bit misleading.

"Lighter skin and larger mouth and eyes...."

Imagine if we looked at humans and said "oh, they have lighter skin and blue eyes, they are a different species".

Genetic variation, yes, new species? Nope!


100% correct Rob and something we all need to be aware of to end the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of out native trout.  Essentially the same species with genetic differences that has evolved to fill every niche in it's given environment which for me makes it the best fish we have. 
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Andy MacArthur on December 25, 2018, 15:30:51 PM
I wasnít aware there were so many qualified biologists on this forum......
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 25, 2018, 16:38:23 PM
Good news - there are more than one or two :z16

Even more good news..... an amateur with an ACME box of kindling built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

Merry Christmas  :z18

 
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Andy MacArthur on December 25, 2018, 17:03:25 PM
You would have thought they would be better versed  in the genetic basis for inheritance and speciation from the view point of reproductive isolation? Merry Xmas. 😀
       
PS. Curious as to how one can claim to be a biologist and simultaneously believe in Arks? 😉
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 25, 2018, 19:42:50 PM
because he 's called Arkwright?  :X2  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 26, 2018, 08:49:16 AM
You would have thought they would be better versed  in the genetic basis for inheritance and speciation from the view point of reproductive isolation? Merry Xmas. 😀
I had a most enjoyable Christmas day - thanks  :z16
When it comes down to it I'm an ichthyologist, not a biologist.  Genetics takes me back a long time to my student days and it annoyed the shit out of me then, some 30 years later it's fair to say I'm not as 'up on it' as I could be....
So although not a biologist, and merely a studier of fish, I had dismissed the idea that peripatric speciation had occurred due to the extent of the environment.
Sympatric speciation is probably the strongest argument for Salmo Laidon (Benthivourous) being a new species.
But to my eyes there is insufficient evidence in the material I have read to date that sufficiently demonstrates that Salmo Laidon (Benthivourous) is a new species, or Ferox, or Gilaroo and so on.

It's the sort of topic that would have kept Vroomfondel, Majikthise and other members of the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and other professional thinking persons busy for many years in debate.

PS. Curious as to how one can claim to be a biologist and simultaneously believe in Arks? 😉
Fortunately, as I'm not a biologist, this doesn't immediately apply to me. That said, I like a good story and I don't have to believe it's true to enjoy the writers work.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 26, 2018, 14:32:35 PM
Biology, Smiology, I am an ex- engineer, with an interest In all things fishy, ( not Dodgy), so I do tend to read a bit, if we didn't have that interest where would we be? :shock Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Andy MacArthur on December 26, 2018, 15:14:17 PM
The Ernst Mayr definition of species quoted previously  is somewhat outdated as it cannot be universally applied to all living organisms.
The Laidon trout certainly qualify as a  species as they fulfil the criteria of the current species concepts in use ie. Morphological, Ecological, Genetic and Bioeconomic. 
Donít shoot the messenger if this wasnít what you learned in school ... just saying.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Hamish Young on December 26, 2018, 16:45:07 PM
The Laidon trout certainly qualify as a  species as they fulfil the criteria of the current species concepts in use ie. Morphological, Ecological, Genetic and Bioeconomic.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

We have been through many changes in scientific understanding of flora and fauna in my short time on this planet and I am sure - whilst folk continue to widely disagree on the facts presented to them which will continue ad nauseum and is very probably a large part of the human condition.
Strikes me we are getting ever closer to seeing a revival in the taxonomy of the Victorians, will we see  Salmo fario , Salmo lacustris, Salmo ferox and a host of others reappearing :?  Possibly.

I'll be meeting up with some biologists for the river systems near to me this coming month, be interesting to see what their take on it all is.  As the evidence is there to support it, I would opt for subspecies or forms over new species - but I am not a biologist.

Donít shoot the messenger if this wasnít what you learned in school ... just saying.
Amongst other functions the purpose of this forum is to provide a means for information exchange, discussion and debate for individuals who are (by and large) unlikely to meet. College was some time ago for me, whilst I am possibly wiser (and certainly older) than I was then, I still understand that discussion and debate is always worth pursuing when seeking knowledge and understanding. This can be challenging at times, but is always worthwhile.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 26, 2018, 23:12:09 PM
will trutta laidonensis be able to breed with Trutta Trutta, or any of the other truttas,? Naturally of course, if this is the case then surely it's the same? or am I being naÔve? perhaps the earlier " Observers Book of British Fishes" was the Victorian version? with all the different  types,,  :z8 , Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Andy MacArthur on December 27, 2018, 00:32:03 AM
Lions and tigers can breed a produce fertile offspring?  Would  you  say they were the same species Derek?
As previously mentioned the old concept of species isnít a Ďcatch allí and definitions have changed and evolved to reflect this.
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 27, 2018, 15:10:43 PM
Both felines, may be it's a stripey thing, I thought that Ligers or Tigons were sterile, but there you go, that's what engineers think, :z18 Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: New species of Brown trout
Post by: Terry Coging on December 30, 2018, 13:46:26 PM
We should stick to being engineers Derek and try to baffle the biologists  :z4