Fishing The Fly Scotland

Home => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Hamish Young on November 29, 2017, 21:32:37 PM

Title: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on November 29, 2017, 21:32:37 PM
If anyone can come up with an answer to how the decisions made regarding the grading of some waters in 2018 by Marine Scotland can be explained I'd really like to hear it. Locally the Beauly DSFB and the Ness & Beauly Fisheries Trust have yet to get a response to numerous emails and formal letter correspondence requesting an explanation. They've been ignored and that's just not on.

I think the reclassification of many waters is a crock of sh!t but I'm maybe missing something. Don't get me wrong, I've not killed a Salmon I've caught for many years (maybe the last one was on the Thurso with Euan a long time ago) as I prefer to see them swim off - but I do resent the actions being taken by Marine Scotland that are likely to impact on more than just the club I'm a member of as they make no sense to me or anyone else I've spoken to.

The Scottish Government must be (I hope) thinking about extending the 'support for angling clubs' beyond the two year cycle announced this year - if they're not then many a club will be in the sh!t.

H  :mad
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Bob Mitchell on November 30, 2017, 15:31:32 PM
Do not know how they can change a river from a cat.2 to a cat.3. during the season. Marine Scotland have returns from all Scottish rivers for many years past and should know how they are preforming.
Bob.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Rob Brownfield on November 30, 2017, 15:43:20 PM
No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on November 30, 2017, 16:54:19 PM
But what ever you do Don't mention Salmon farming,  :z8 Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on November 30, 2017, 18:13:20 PM
Salmon farming is not one of my favourite things.... you might even say I have a 'bee in my bunnet' about it.... or that it 'rips my knitting'.... or 'really boils my p!ss'.

But, in this instance, Salmon farming is an entirely separate issue. I take the point that it needs to be dealt with, but the grading of rivers by Marine Scotland is about as kosher as Salmon farms reaching RSPCA 'assured' status.

Each is ridiculous and each warrants distinct investigation.

H
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Peter Davidson on November 30, 2017, 20:09:18 PM
No joined up thinking, no long term planning, lots of knee jerk reaction, plenty of posturing with little to back it up, lots of jumping from one lobby to the other to win a little more support....
This seems an excellent and authentic description of most governments these days. Gold star to Rob and he should be elected as the Forum Political analyst
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on November 30, 2017, 21:54:53 PM
after attending one of the Meetings over the wild fish reforms   we were asked what did we think   would be a  way forward , BUT whatever you do don't mention fish farming as that is historical, there was a guy from marine Scotland at the meeting . what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Euan Innes on November 30, 2017, 22:17:32 PM
The problem is guv'ment, Scottish or otherwise.
If you can keep those funding you happy, those voting for you in certain areas happy whilst all those around them are suffering, then you my son, are an MSP.
No one has the balls to call total C&R, except 90% of the salmon fishermen. There are still a reducing number of salmon anglers that need to kill, despite the low numbers, ghillies included.
I have listened to a lot of Aprils podcasts on that mind numbing commute recently and I now have a very good picture of how Canada and America have treated the same issues, and almost screwed it all up. Hatchery fails, indiscriminate killing, wrong reasons for introducing new breed stocks and so on, and we seem to be going the same way.
My views might be a bit extreme these days and for that you can thank Dermot Wilson for introducing me to C&R.  There are fewer fish in Scottish rivers and fewer anglers going for them. The experience has not changed, the locations have not changed so those need protecting, as do the fish.
The categories make no sense at all to me. Just stop killing fish, let them spawn and help them all we can and they might come back. If we can do that and the numbers are still in decline, then the fault lies elsewhere and certainly NOT with the salmon anglers.
I might be a bit tunnel visioned but I do love the salmon. Shame our "leaders" and experts don't.
A-holes..... :mad :mad :mad

 :z1
Continuing to let fish go, whatever the species, since 2005.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on November 30, 2017, 23:41:53 PM
what ever you think, the biggest influence on the demise of the salmon is  salmon farming, even the poachers couldn't make the impact that salmon farming has  had, we had poachers but we had salmon and seatrout on loch Maree, so I wonder what the Scottish government thinks the problem is, if it isn't salmon farming,
No, sorry Derek but I can't accept that as an axiom.

The greatest blight on our landscape and certainly the cause of the almost total destruction of the West Coast Sea Trout populations is Salmon farming - agreed.

However, nationally (in Scotland) the impact of the farmed Salmon is smaller in 'Salmon' population terms than you might believe. There are a greater number of contributive factors - mostly man made or as a direct result of our actions - which impact on the broader bio-diversity and the thing to remember is the impact of Salmon farming is considerably less (almost negligible, in fact) on the East coast.
That does not mean that the farming of Salmon isn't part of the problem (without dispute it is) but it is not the biggest influence.

Whatever the 'causative agents' in the ups and downs of our salmonid populations it remains that the calculations used to determine river categorisation are beyond my comprehension and, apparently, beyond explanation by Marine Scotland to their stakeholders.

This is most vexing.

H
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Bob Mitchell on December 01, 2017, 09:25:56 AM
Salmon farming has increased as the numbers of wild salmon have decreased so where is the problem. ??
Looking at my river it is surprising that any fish survive to get to the sea.
 Banks falling in have killed off the clean spawning  gravel with the loss of vast amounts of fly life such as March Browns/Large dark olives/Yellow sallys and many more. The river is getting shallower which means it heats up more in summer? Goosanders and there friends are eating everything they can. Sewage is coming in which amongst other things encourages blanket weed. Beavers are felling trees that are falling in the river and causing further damage to the banks.Freshwater lice are having a field day in the warmer water and that is only the start.
I will keep taking the odd fish for the table as long as I am allowed until some other effort is made to sort out some of these problems.
Bob.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 01, 2017, 13:55:22 PM
It remains the case that Marine Scotland have yet to give any reasons for their new conservation measures.

It also remains the case that  - as is always the way - that the reasons for the decline in the populations of our anadromous salmonids will be the cause of much disagreement  :wink
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 03, 2017, 20:42:45 PM
  since the end of the last war , what would be the major influence on Migratory fish east and west, what has happened ( Apart from Global warming) that would have an effect on these species, we had coastal netting and poaching yet we still had  sufficient stocks to support both sport and commercial fishing, I worked on a bag net station  with an average catch of over 2,400 fish , the Achiltiebuie bag nets had 3 times that, the Clachtol Bag nets had over 2,000 for the season , yet all the well known rivers had decent stocks of returning fish, so what do you think happened Hamish? what other problems could there be? even the seals didn't have this effect ,  Derek   Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 04, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
Of course anything I suggest is my opinion...

Following the Second World War a discernable and quantifiable (where accurate catch returns were being made) decline in the stocks of Salmon all around the North Atlantic 'population base' was noted. Although fish continued to be caught the trend was definitely downward and particularly in those rivers formerly blessed with populations of Springers.
Indeed I recall having the chat with the old skipper I worked with in the late 80s who ran a bag netting station on Ardnamurchan in Kentra Bay and we spent an interesting Saturday pouring over his records as he was very clear on there being a definite 8 year cycle in fish populations/numbers - but I digress. His records showed a downward turn from around the late '40s (when his Dad had run the nets) compared to the pre-war period. Of course, there was no Salmon farming then.
 
Unquestionably there are other activities where in an effort to control or profit from nature we have had an effect on fish populations (Salmon included) across every element of their life-cycle.  In Scotland the rapid expansion of hydro electric schemes in the post-war without adequate (even today) fish passes or concern for water flow led to the loss of vast amounts of spawning grounds and, I suspect, the extinction of several strains.

Post war afforestation has also contributed to habitat loss and has a continued effect in terms of acid 'wash' through fish habitat throughout the Highlands.

Then we come to one of the most significant factors.
In the 1950s the Salmon feeding grounds around Greenland and the Faroe Islands were discovered.  For me the exploitation of these grounds by fishermen is unquestionably the single largest impact on Salmon populations across the North Atlantic area commercial fishing industry was established. There was no 'sustainable management' and the sea gave up huge numbers of fish until there was little to catch any more.

All of the above are significant enough, but the coup de grāce in many places (Scotland included) might be considered as the development of coastal Salmon farming since the 1980's.

Be under no illusion, I am no fan of Salmon farming in its current form. I do consider it to be a significant contributor to the loss of  Sea Trout (in particular) and  Salmon populations across the West coast - but for me it is a contributing factor rather than the most single damaging contributor.

More to say but I'm late for work!

H
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 04, 2017, 16:07:57 PM
have to agree with you about the Cyclical event Graphs for loch Maree show this , catching and fishing for spawning fish at the latter part of the year played its part in this, the fishing effort then diminished, until some sort of recovery took place, and then the regulars returned , and the cycle started again, the Salmon farm in loch ewe started in 1985 at a low period in the cycle  there was no recovery, from a seasonal average of over 2000 to less than 300 in 3 years, now it's probably a lot less, but the fishers aren't there
either . there was a salmon farm at Munlochy bay for while , but it wasn't a success, as I said we had poachers and bag nets and a viable sport fishery , this all went down hill when salmon farms started, perhaps the Atlantic Salmon trust should have bought out the Farms ?  :z12 Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 04, 2017, 19:04:09 PM
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 04, 2017, 23:29:26 PM
No Hamish they are a power unto theirselves,  do any of them have any salmon fishing experience? I doubt it they rely on the returns from the rivers  but they may not be accurate, so you are stuck with them, for better or worse, I noted the Quotation from G H Nall , he did a lot of work on Loch Maree with William Menzies, I have Trout & Sea Trout by Menzies with findings by Nall,   :z18  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Rob Brownfield on December 05, 2017, 08:39:30 AM
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?

The same way as many Scottish government "departments" calculate things. You take evidence from dubious sources and present it as fact. and repeat, repeat, repeat until people believe you.

At best, catch returns give a very loose indication of what's being caught. With fewer anglers you get a lower catch return, with more anglers, a higher catch return (in general).  It is not rocket science...but it does appear to be used as "factual" science by the Scottish Government.

Add into the equation of weather conditions making rivers unfishable for periods of time, people not reporting catches, fish being caught and returned more than once, people claiming Kelts in catch returns, fish smaller than 1lb not needing to be recorded...you soon see that a more accurate way of recording the number of fish in a river is to post a notice on the river bank inviting them to afternoon tea and then counting how many turn up!

I know it is not easy, I know we are talking about something that is hard to spot in its natural surroundings and that moves up and down the river making counting even harder, but to present as "fact" some of the findings is just wrong.

Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Ivor Duffus on December 05, 2017, 09:27:42 AM
So.... has anyone got any insight to the mystical way Marine Scotland have come about determining the 2018 categorisation of rivers in Scotland  :?


 How can they evaluate rivers in there current state with no back end run  :z8 :z8.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 05, 2017, 10:33:51 AM
I hate to say it but i think they got it right for the Aberdeenshire Don. The numbers of fish in the river have been going down and down...

I think they have it wrong for the nairn as when you 'marry' Cat 1 status for next year with the 'fill your boots' number of salmon you are allowed to keep i dont think it does anyone any favours....
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 05, 2017, 22:51:03 PM
Marine Scotland were asked recently," What would be the penalty for taking a salmon from a Cat 3 river?,"
 the answer was " we will have to get back to you" you would think they would have some Idea ? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 06, 2017, 07:55:52 AM
I'm reasonably determined to chase this up with my MSP. It's not because I have any particular need or desire to knock the occasional silver tourist on the head, far from it, but the apparent incompetence of those with the designated authority to administer the conservation measures is palpable in my eyes. This breeds resentment and distrust, at a time when neither is at all helpful, within the angling community. Time they were taken to task.
H  :X1
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 06, 2017, 08:53:09 AM
Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Peter Davidson on December 06, 2017, 20:33:32 PM
Depends who your MSP is Hamish.

The current SG would rather support foreign fish farming companies ( even though they employ very few people in low skilled jobs - which is probably costing the economy more in losses through the collapse of wild fish that is gained through fish farming)  than anglers ( particulalry as salmon fishing is seen as a 'rich mans sport') - so if you MSP is SNP well....
And the evidence for the above is???????????????????????
That'll be under the same criteria as the SG should, according to this thread, be applying to the classification of salmon rivers.

Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 06, 2017, 22:29:18 PM
Hi  Peter, you think about the jobs wild salmon fishing supports say for people traveling to Scotland for a few days fishing. They drive up ( petrol bought on route) , eat in restaurants, drink in bars, buy stuff at local tacklehops, stay in hotels. They have a gillie and maybe a guide. There are bailiffs. Without the revenue estates would suffer affecting the other estate workers...All of the above supports a lot of jobs.  Money that stays in the community and helps support it.  Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Peter Davidson on December 07, 2017, 15:58:58 PM
Fish farming has  low paid jobs ( and not a huge amount compared to what fishing supports)and the companies being foreign take all the profit elsewhere. I hope that makes sense ?

It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 09, 2017, 09:11:56 AM
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.

As is always the way, this thread has moved across a spectrum of issues that impact - or are perceived to impact - on the original subject which is Marine Scotland's (apparent) unwillingness to engage with its stakeholders. That needs to be fully addressed.

When it comes to the fish farming debate I have always stated (not necessarily in these words, but the same message) that in its current form it is incredibly environmentally destructive and that alternate methods of farming needed to be explored in order for the industry to remain.  Those technologies (largely pump ashore as the alternate) have actually existed for 40 years so it's good to hear that this is now being more fully explored. But related though it is, it's a separate discussion.

As fas as the bit of the post that I've quoted Peter, I have never known you to stop engaging in debate when you have an informed position and something to say. So you should not stop adding to the discussion, you're not wasting time, and by and large most folk are pretty rational souls whose opinions are open to change with informed discussion based on facts.

Never give up :! Never surrender :!

H :cool:
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 09, 2017, 16:51:00 PM
It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.
   Now Peter , here's me wondering who this Mr Roxburgh is, then I thought he may be referring to me, I might think about getting you off for bad spelling , you must remember I worked in fish farming and gillying , and 15 years inshore fishing , I was a founder member of the association that you eventually worked for, I gave up howling a long time ago, just remember that you aren't the only one with experience of the fields you mention, Oh, I also worked in tourism  working for SNH in the information centre, after 48 years living and working here , I probably have as much right as you , to have an opinion,
salmon farming was, at the beginning a saviour to a lot of local communities , but, as I can add up, there wasn't the number  of people working in fish farming as was bandied about, even with 20 people per site through out Scotland it doesn't come to the numbers given by some, remember I visited most of these sites delivering smolts up to Shetland and the outer isles and down to Loch Fyne , now  a lot of these sites have cut back on personnel by as much as 60%, so only valuable to the People who actually work there,
as for Gillying, I know it was seasonal , but the anglers that came brought families and they went out into the country side and spent money locally, so the money went round. Now there are few anglers coming to the likes of the Loch Maree Hotel, so these places are struggling, as well as the fish the anglers came for,  As I mentioned previously in a post, we had seals, Poachers , etc. but we still had fish to catch, until the advent of upper loch Salmon farming then it went down hill, notice Peter, I am not Howling just stating a few facts as I  have seen them ,now my rant is over ,  just spell my name right the next time you make a criticism,  cheers Derek ROXBOROUGH  :X2
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Ivor Duffus on December 09, 2017, 19:28:24 PM
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 09, 2017, 19:54:16 PM
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.
    sounds Like a nice Idea , but what happens to the effluent, the hatchery I worked for had an Industrial effluent discharge consent about the same as a small town, there are a lot of solids in the effluent ,when the uneaten feed is discharged, plus fish faeces, Ok no sea lice,a big plus, but a build up of solids at the outlet may pose other problems, a deepwater system away from sea lochs with  a reasonable movement of water may also be another way forward, every thing flushed away with the current  :z13  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Hamish Young on December 09, 2017, 20:00:21 PM
Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.

Well yes... but sadly mostly no  :z6 Other than the clean up operation that we can't rely on nature to sort out for us don't forget that something like three quarters of all UK smolt production is in cages across the lochs of Scotland. Before that, and as Derek has observed, even the well run hatcheries (producing pre-smolts) with decent settlement systems aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
 So even if the pump ashore contained salmon farms work, we still have another element to be resolved surrounding the production of Smolts.
With that addressed ensuring that the pump ashore Salmon farms have decent settlement ponds and waste treatment systems will be the next thing... and so on.
It's not that my glass is half empty - genuinely, news that pump ashore salmon farms are (at last :!) becoming a reality means my glass is half full - but we can't forget the damage that smolt production is having on a separate part of the ecosystem and it will be one of the next battles.

H  :z10
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Ivor Duffus on December 09, 2017, 20:19:15 PM
Yes indeed good point you still have the crap to deal with  :z16. But am guessing closed containment is still 10 years down the line so hopefully  solutions will be found.

then again it would be no surprise if nothing at all  happens in Scotland and salmon farming expands offshore  :mad :mad
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Bob Mitchell on December 10, 2017, 10:18:22 AM
Can not see closed containment being 100% working for us.  That would mean that sites could be set up anywhere in the world and using Scottish eggs/smolts called "Scottish salmon" same idea as beef. [Our fore bearers took Loch Leven eggs all over the world]
The waste from the farms, someone will find a use for perhaps fertilizer for gardens/farming or something along those lines.
What ever happens we must keep the farms or the wild salmon will be completely killed off.
I know what over half a century of keeping ones eyes open has shown me.
Bob.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Ivor Duffus on December 10, 2017, 12:29:33 PM
I dont wish to distract from the thread further but since we are talking about fish farms this link is worth a look.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiu7Yndt__XAhXGIcAKHSYDC4kQFggwMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.mongabay.com%2F2016%2F08%2Ffish-farm-escapees-are-weakening-norwegian-wild-salmon-genetics%2F&usg=AOvVaw3q9Xg1rZBsYl9SbR69zETO

Regards
ID
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 10, 2017, 16:06:36 PM
any shore based system will have to have Industrial effluent discharge consent, the hatchery I worked at had 2 problems  , one was treatable with chloramine, this was Costia magnified by  the close confinement system , the second was Glochidiosis caused by the Pearl Mussels in the river , untreatable , now there is a Marine species of Costia , it may proliferate with the close confinement of the salmon ,  so more chemicals, the solids can be settled out in fresh water these would be useable on the land , but can the same be said when you have  salt in the mix?,some hatcheries used Anti Biotics in large quantities, some salmon farms used to used A/Bs as a profilactic.  According to the Times  today 22,000 tonnes of salmon died on Scottish salmon farms last year, 1/3 rd of that was on marine harvest farms, this salmon was used in Methane digesters to generate electricity , you would think after the years of experience these Salmon farmers have they would get it right, can we trust them with on shore systems?
  :z8  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 11, 2017, 09:26:58 AM
You have to ask whether any other industry 'gets away with' what the fish farming one does in terms of postitioning of the cages, sea lice, use of chemicals etc. In this day in age the answer is probably no. Other polluting industries have to smarten up their act - so why not fish farming ?

What i also dont get it why dont the 'Green' party step in ?

They hold the balance of power in Holyrood- without them the SNP are out on their ear.

 How can the 'Greens' think its OK to pollute the sea, impact wild salmon and also when i takes more fishmeal to produce an equivalent weight of farmed fish. How sustainable is that ?
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 11, 2017, 12:02:49 PM
how green are the "green" party? Derek  Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 11, 2017, 21:45:04 PM
Even the One Show got in on the act tonight investigating the salmon farming industry , particularly highlighting that 25% of farmed salmon die of disease or infestation
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 11, 2017, 22:37:25 PM
22,000 tons dead last year sent to anaerobic digester to make methane,  ??? Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 12, 2017, 09:39:32 AM
they have the follow up tonight, speaking to the industry who will no doubt say 'we have it well under control'..

Great timing by the One Show as this will make a lot of people think twice about  buying smoked salmon at Christmas, hopefully..

what i found disgusting is that they could load a non-watertight lorry with dead and rotting fish and then drive it for 2 days through towns etc leaving a trail of stinking 'sludge'. Surely you are not allowed to do that ?
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Bob Mitchell on December 12, 2017, 10:23:07 AM
As I said in the local paper the Green party want to be careful not to upset the S.N.P.
The fish farmers are holding the government to ransom like a lot of other multy million pound companies. If you make us obey all the laws then we will close and there will be thousands of jobs lost. Black mail works if you are big enough.
Bob.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 12, 2017, 12:28:46 PM
 If you do the figures there aren't that many jobs actually on the farms now , the hatchery I worked had 7 staff now has 3, and the nearest sea site had 16 now has 6, Ok there are spin offs  such as transport and processing, but there was a rumour that there was vested interests in the Scottish Parliament, my take is that there are now a lot less jobs in the industry than there once  was, but the high heed yins still like their perks, and they have to keep the investors happy, but then I am a cynical git, :X2  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 12, 2017, 12:51:23 PM
As I said in the local paper the Green party want to be careful not to upset the S.N.P.
The fish farmers are holding the government to ransom like a lot of other multy million pound companies. If you make us obey all the laws then we will close and there will be thousands of jobs lost. Black mail works if you are big enough.
Bob.

The SNP need the Greens far more than the other way round Bob.

I honestly dont think that there are that many jobs in fish farming compared to those in 'wild fish' jobs - hotels, restaurants, bars, tackle shops, gillies you name it.

The SG should just call their bluff - lets face it where else will they go ? Nobody else really wants such a polluting industry.

I know 'big industry' can weild some degree of power but that has to be balanced in what they contribute to the economy. I really dont think the salmon farming industry comtributes much - maybe a few hundred jobs - lets even go wild and say 2000. This pales into insignificance when you look at say the oil industry that has lost many 10s of thousands, contributes millions to goverment coffers yet you dont see the governement suddenly  letting the oil industry cut corners and being allowed to pollute like the fish farming industry does....

the one show will be interesting again tonight. Shame countryfile do as 'tough ' an investigation as the one show seem to be able to do...
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 12, 2017, 16:23:39 PM
James , did you read my post?  :z18  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Bob Mitchell on December 13, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
Watched the bit on the One show last night.
In my view there was nothing  said that was new and I thought the presenter was very timid. He admitted that closed containment was many years away. Made out that they were now using wrasse to eat the sea lice which would solve the problem. Chemicals were just shrugged off by the fish farmer rep.
Agree that the S.N.P. need the Green party more than the other way around. To me this gives the "green party  "a stronger hand.
Still think that looking after the rivers and dealing with goosanders is the starting point.
When I started fishing my stretch of the River Earn there were vast shoals of Grayling turning the river grey at spawning time [May] Fishing in the evening it was like rain the parr feeding on the surface. Watching up to 70 goosanders flying upstream for a few years and the grayling/browns and parr have all mostly gone.
Bob.
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Rob Brownfield on December 13, 2017, 13:41:38 PM
I know on the issue of Pacific Salmon the Scottish Government have washed their hands of it..saying to the Salmon boards "You deal with it".

My own view is that the SG is in a dilemma. It hates the thought of land and fishing rights being in the hands of the "privileged" or "tories"..because if you own land and fishing that's what you must be...apparently...and I don't think it can be seen to support "the privileged" salmon angler or fishing owners as that goes against the policies it is putting in place to ensure land and associated rights are "given to the public".  After all, little Billy Wallace off a council estate can't afford to go salmon fishing...so why should anyone else.

The Greens are behind the scenes, wanting a ban on angling. In their policies they clearly state "We shall extend the Animal Welfare Act to cover all fishing activities. "  This means that catching fish will be classed as wilfully injuring and tormenting an animal. The SG may just need their help and may just ban angling....I don't think its as far fetched as it may first seem.

But that's another dilemma for the SG. They support fish farming (despite failing to disclose the true figures of mortality and disease rates) yet the Greens want it banned. No conflict there then!
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 13, 2017, 16:53:01 PM
if the SNP are honest in the Implementation of the Wild Fish PROTECTION act then salmon farming should be first to go,  where is the sense in protecting the industry, and penalising sport fishermen,?Wasn't it the salmon Industry that was supposed to be the saviour of the wild salmon? after all angling through out the UK is a popular sport, enjoyed by millions and supporting  millions of jobs,  but the Likes of Gilpin Bradley would see it differently , he was collared, probably because the big producers didn't want to be seen as the villains, our club would like him to remove his derelict cage from our loch , it's breaking up and  leaving rubbish round the loch, but that is beside the point,an interesting comment on the programme was about Wrasse , that the farmed (bred) wrasse  didn't eat sealice? where the fishermen have been trapping wrasse for the farms  they are find other species are moving in,  Octopus for instance it just shows you cant do things like that with out some sort of Knock on effect,
  :z8  Derek Roxborough
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: James Laraway on December 13, 2017, 21:29:51 PM
That chap Gilpin did come across as not very nice, especially when they asked about salmon farming killing wild fish. You could see hear the aggression in his answer and voice....
Title: Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
Post by: Derek Roxborough on December 14, 2017, 21:47:16 PM
his Father would hear no criticism of the industry , but your right about him , Derek Roxborough