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Home => Tackle Talk => Topic started by: Hamish Young on April 23, 2015, 20:56:28 PM

Title: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 23, 2015, 20:56:28 PM
No :!

Not one I needed to see a doctor about thanks  :z4.... a fishing itch :z15

I have come to the conclusion that no matter how much I try to convince myself and no matter how much I like casting them I don't want or need a switch rod, a small double hander is much more my cup of tea. Question is which small double hander :? and (more importantly) which double hander in my budget  :? Now I am fortunate because, as an Orvis endorsed Fishing Guide, I am able to test their kit out from time to time on a long term trial - which is nice.

So back in February (ahem  :oops) I asked for the loan of the new for 2015 Orvis Clearwater 12'6" #6wt Spey Rod matched to the new Hydros Spey Line system. They remained in the cupboard until today but, today, we went down to the Beauly together for my very first cast of the season.

I'd love to be able to tell you that I caught a spring salmon - or a sea trout - but I didn't. What I did have was just a belting, relaxing time chucking around a seriously nice wee rod which is far more capable than I initially expected. I really wish I'd had another line to use as the Hydros system is a sort of skandi-skagit type thing and whilst it coped with all sorts of polyleaders and went a long way (actually, a very long way indeed) it was somehow an unrewarding line to use, the rod and I were very soon looking for something longer in the head and I hope to find that line. Back to the rod.
If you're looking for something in that sort of size then do yourself a favour and go try one out, it's very competent indeed. I even like the colour:
http://www.orvis.co.uk/store/product.aspx?pf_id=8P48&dir_id=441&group_id=442&cat_id=9055

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Euan Innes on April 23, 2015, 21:48:27 PM
So how did the bottom handle work out? I seem to recall that neither of us liked it but obviously it all came together on the day.
Was it still too short or did actually putting a line out make you change the grip?
What line would you like to see on it and would I like the rod when that line is found?
So many questions...  :z4

 :z1
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Marc Fauvet on April 23, 2015, 22:32:08 PM
sounds good H and I'll go try one out but only if you can tell me what a Scandi-Skagit type thing is first...   :z7
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 24, 2015, 00:02:55 AM
So how did the bottom handle work out? I seem to recall that neither of us liked it but obviously it all came together on the day.
Was it still too short or did actually putting a line out make you change the grip?

After just a couple of casts I had completely forgotten about the apparent shortness of the rear handle - it's just fine :z16

What line would you like to see on it and would I like the rod when that line is found?

I think you'll love it  :wink I need to have a think about the line, the ISS would probably suit it but doesn't come that light. The RIO Short Head Spey would probably be bang on but I need to go away and play practice trial experiment try some different lines.

sounds good H and I'll go try one out but only if you can tell me what a Scandi-Skagit type thing is first...   :z7

Ha :! Nice question Marc  :wink

For me it's a Scandi -Skagit type thing as I feel it has some of the properties I associate with each of those lines. So whilst it's short and heavy-ish (Skagit) it also tapers down at the front quite finely for the lines overall length; a fine front taper being something I associate more with a Scandi. Orvis themselves call it a Skagit style shooting head, so I guess they see it firmly in that vein. It is short. And heavy-ish.

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 24, 2015, 08:28:25 AM
So, you have settled for a "long" switch rod ;)

I have never cast my two switch rods single handed so I treat them as light double handers.

One is for Salmon (Helios #7) the other for trout and sea trout (Batson #5). I like them because they make fishing tree lined rivers easy and relaxing. I don't use the lighter one much, but when I do, its a real pleasure to fish.

I think there is a place for them, but I do not believe for one moment that you can fish dries single handed one moment, then swing streamers the next followed by a heavy nymph and indicator rig the next.
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 24, 2015, 09:08:28 AM
I think we're on a similar wavelength here Rob, I also see the switch rod as a small double hander. Much as though I love the Helios Switch.... and the MacKenzies.... and.... (you get the idea) there's not room for one in my armoury. Well, that's what I have convinced myself of recently  :z7

Genuinely impressed with that Clearwater 12' 6" #6 Spey, you should go try one  :z13

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 24, 2015, 11:02:15 AM
Genuinely impressed with that Clearwater 12' 6" #6 Spey, you should go try one  :z13

As I am currently sh*ting a brick waiting to hear if we have got a house or not (closing date today at 3pm) I doubt I will be spending any more money for a while lol.

The new house (if we get it) will require a different approach to fishing as the Don will be that bit too far to go. The Isla however.... oh, and small streams galore.

However, I have looked at the Clearwater range and was thinking of the 10 weight for seriously big flies :)

I am in the same boat as you, having recently counted my rods for insurance purposes and potential move...87 at the moment....ahem!

There will be some being sold in the near future :(
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 24, 2015, 11:25:52 AM
Which Isla..... ???
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Euan Innes on April 24, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
I always wanted a 12'6" rod as most of the times of year and places that I fished for salmon and sea trout never really warrented anything over that and if the new switch rods can throw a line 30m then I might be after one.
I was always confused about the line ratings on them and calling the Orvis a #6 and then finding out it is more like an #8 doesn't help my old brain.
So can anyone tell me how a switch #6 and a "normal" #6 differ in weight?

 :z1
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Marc Fauvet on April 24, 2015, 12:37:47 PM

So can anyone tell me how a switch #6 and a "normal" #6 differ in weight?

hiya,
to start off with and to try to be as simple as possible.., they're completely different ratings as they're not meant for the same usage.
single hand lines are made for overhead casting whereas Spey lines are made for Spey casting.
here's a chart showing both types and their respective weights.
http://thelimpcobra.com/2012/08/30/single-and-double-hand-fly-line-weight-charts/

in the second half of this article you'll find why Spey lines are and have to be heavier than single-hand lines.
http://thelimpcobra.com/2015/04/14/fly-casting-73/

so, to get back to your question, in a very roundabout way which includes a lot of variables...  :z4 typically, a single-hand line 3 wts heavier than the double-handed rod's wt rating usually does the trick.
to put it another way, a 9wt single-hand line should be just about right for your 6wt double-hand rod for Spey casting.
(and yes, a Switch rod is a double-hand rod)
hope this helps, cheers.
marc
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Euan Innes on April 24, 2015, 12:50:13 PM
Perfect Marc.  :z16
And yes a Switch rod IS a double hander!  :z4
Years ago you could get a 12'6" #7 that was actually a DT7 but it was pretty crap and a standard DT7 wasn't long enough.
I also think that 11' is not long enough for a salmon river and is a length that would suit the single / double handed casters. I am not one of them so the Clearwater kind of appeals to me.
Thanks for clearing up the weights issue Marc.

 :z1
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Marc Fauvet on April 24, 2015, 12:52:37 PM

Ha :! Nice question Marc  :wink

For me it's a Scandi -Skagit type thing as I feel it has some of the properties I associate with each of those lines.

ok, i kinda see what you're getting at (and already knew what you where getting at before my initial reply...  :z4 ) but it seems like you're putting the two in the same category maybe because they're both shooting head systems (?) where they're really not.
as you'll see here, Scandis are designed as a 'normal/standard' fly line which uses 'standard' leaders or polyleader-type leaders and intended for airborne anchor casts.
whereas Skagit lines are designed to be used with sink tips which are an integral part of the line's system and to be used for waterborne anchor casts.
http://thelimpcobra.com/2015/04/23/fly-fishing-17/

of course, there aren't any rules and we can say, do a jump roll with a Skagit line but it ain't gonna be half as sweet as with a line made for dynamic rolls and Speys...  :wink
cheers,
marc
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 24, 2015, 15:52:08 PM
Aye Marc, you can see why I said a "Scandi-Skagit type thing", it is quite a minefield trying to provide a description on a forum of something you have cast that isn't quite one thing but isn't quite enough of another to classed as something other than a 'type thing' :! Perhaps I should have said 'hybrid' :wink

I confess I have always considered a 'Scandi' style line to be a shooting head, simply as it has always been presented to me as such and it is (relatively) a 'new' term to me.
So whilst I believe I am quite happy with the differences between Scandi and Skagit types and the typical anchors used in both during Spey casting I am actually now a wee bit perplexed as I don't recall casting anything that suggested it was both Scandi style and a full length fly line.
Unless a 'Spey' line that uses versileaders (other products are available) is now being classed as a Scandi style ( :?) it just doesn't work with my (admittedly peculiar) definitions or how I see these lines to class them as anything other than a shooting head.

..... or is it that what you're saying is the 'Scandi' type lines are a full line in their own right as they do not have to fish a versileader (other products are available) off the front to be a 'full' line whereas a Skagit requires a T tip (or similar) as a vital component and therefore cannot be considered a full line without tips :?

It's a bloody nightmare this :!

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Marc Fauvet on April 24, 2015, 18:18:58 PM
..... or is it that what you're saying is the 'Scandi' type lines are a full line in their own right as they do not have to fish a versileader (other products are available) off the front to be a 'full' line whereas a Skagit requires a T tip (or similar) as a vital component and therefore cannot be considered a full line without tips :?

exactly ! the Scandi is made to cast either standard mono leaders or versis and maybe most importantly, as brought up in the linked video, since versis won't/can't get down as fast (as skagit sink tips) they'll most often be used for slower or shallower runs.
another thing about scandis is since the line tip is long and fine, they'll be vey poor (read suck...  :z4 ) at delivering big/heavy/air-resistant flies that are typically used in the Pacific North West where Skagit kit is basically a necessity because of all the fast, deep and relatively narrow rivers.

make sense ?
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 24, 2015, 18:57:35 PM
make sense ?

Well here's the thing, it always did make sense to me :! I admit you had me worried for a minute there Marc ZX2 I was beginning to doubt my sanity :!
I think this is a good case of coming full circle and useful as, I suppose,  rather than get away with "Hamish short hand" and call the line a hybrid or a Scandi-Skagit type thing I should give a more in depth 'review'.

So hows this:
The Orvis Hydros Spey System as tested on the really rather good Clearwater 12' 6" #6wt Spey rod is a shooting head which is marketed by Orvis as a Skagit-style fly line. It is short (like a skagit) and heavy for its length (like a skagit) but could also be considered an attempt at a hybrid as it has some of the properties I would associate with a Scandi, such the longer front taper which is happier with versileaders/polyleaders and not T tips. You might call it a Scandi-Skagit hybrid, the fine tip of one and the short heaviness of the other.
In summary it is a fine line but isn't quite what I'd expect from either a Skagit or a Scandi so leaves me wondering which it is or, better still, which other lines should I buy to go with it :?

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Patrick Mcguigan on April 24, 2015, 21:53:34 PM
A scandi-skagit type thing, otherwise known as a scandit  :z16
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Mike Barrio on April 24, 2015, 21:57:12 PM
Hmmm ........ Scandits, where's my pencil n paper :z4
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Marc Fauvet on April 25, 2015, 13:00:55 PM

So hows this:
The Orvis Hydros Spey System as tested on the really rather good Clearwater 12' 6" #6wt Spey rod is a shooting head which is marketed by Orvis as a Skagit-style fly line. It is short (like a skagit) and heavy for its length (like a skagit) but could also be considered an attempt at a hybrid as it has some of the properties I would associate with a Scandi, such the longer front taper which is happier with versileaders/polyleaders and not T tips. You might call it a Scandi-Skagit hybrid, the fine tip of one and the short heaviness of the other.
In summary it is a fine line but isn't quite what I'd expect from either a Skagit or a Scandi so leaves me wondering which it is or, better still, which other lines should I buy to go with it :?
okidoke, thanks Hamish. i wasn't aware of this particular line and explains well your 'hybrid' description. my mistake then...  :roll  :z4
this line does indeed sound like a half-assed attempt at combining two very different concepts most probably born from the idle mind of some 'what could we come up with next ?' marketing specialist....  :z4

anyhow, if Mike expanded the ISS line to have 6/7 and 5/6 wts a lot of us would be very happy  :wink
cheers,
marc
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 25, 2015, 15:04:51 PM
anyhow, if Mike expanded the ISS line to have 6/7 and 5/6 wts a lot of us would be very happy  :wink

Yes indeed, the Clearwater is a very competent wee rod so if its representative of the lighter weight 'spey' rods that are on the market then an ISS in those lower line weights might indeed be a very good call. Mr B :?
Or, perhaps, the new (not even in prototype form as yet) Barrio Snandit could be the future  :wink

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 27, 2015, 08:00:47 AM

I was always confused about the line ratings on them and calling the Orvis a #6 and then finding out it is more like an #8 doesn't help my old brain.


My Helios #7 Switch throws a Rio Outbound #9 overhead with no problems...not that I would use it thus..lol

On the Rio website there are two very very useful "line selector" charts for many of the popular rods. Well worth a look to get an idea of what your rod likes (from the Rio range that is :) )

For older rods:  http://www.rioproducts.com/skin/summit/pdf/old-spey-line-recommendations.pdf

For slightly newer rods: http://www.rioproducts.com/RIO-Spey-Line-Recs.pdf

The recommendations have been spot on for my 4 double handers so far :)
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Euan Innes on April 28, 2015, 07:19:39 AM
Quote
As I am currently sh*ting a brick waiting to hear if we have got a house or not (closing date today at 3pm) I doubt I will be spending any more money for a while lol.

The new house (if we get it) will require a different approach to fishing as the Don will be that bit too far to go. The Isla however.... oh, and small streams galore.

So what happened about the house Rob and which Isla was it?  :z4

 :z1
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 28, 2015, 07:48:36 AM
So what happened about the house Rob and which Isla was it?  :z4

 :z1

Lost out, not a happy bunny at all..but such is life. A buyer from down south offered very silly money :(

Twas the Isla attached to the Tay.
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Euan Innes on April 28, 2015, 08:02:22 AM
That's a shame Rob.
So it was my neck of the woods that you were moving to. Haven't got down to the Isla yet but it is on the cards. Along with the North Esk, Backwater etc etc.... :z4

 :z1
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Hamish Young on April 28, 2015, 08:25:03 AM
One of my volunteers is selling his late fathers house down in Glen Isla.....http://www.millergerrard.com/summary.php?Ref=494&price=99999999&bedrooms=3&type=Detached&submit= the price has been reduced heavily. Who knows, might be of interest to you Rob  :z8

H :cool:
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 28, 2015, 10:06:14 AM
One of my volunteers is selling his late fathers house down in Glen Isla.....http://www.millergerrard.com/summary.php?Ref=494&price=99999999&bedrooms=3&type=Detached&submit= the price has been reduced heavily. Who knows, might be of interest to you Rob  :z8

H :cool:

Suit me down to the ground and a good price, but too far from Aberdeen :(
Title: Re: I had an itch in need of scratching....
Post by: Rob Brownfield on April 28, 2015, 10:10:53 AM
That's a shame Rob.
So it was my neck of the woods that you were moving to. Haven't got down to the Isla yet but it is on the cards. Along with the North Esk, Backwater etc etc.... :z4

 :z1

I would have been placed for the Luther, West Water and North Esk as well as the head waters of the Bervie.

Was looking in Auchenblae, the house next to the house my dad owned :( I helped build it 30 years ago as I lent a hand leveling concrete, shifting bricks etc for the family that built it. Would have loved to live in something I had a hand in. Such is life!