Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Fly Tying => Topic started by: Magnus Angus on 05/03/2014 at 18:47
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Phil Holding has managed to persuade Lawrence Waldron to make a few more LAW Bench vices
http://www.flytyingboutique.com/LAW.cfm#.UxdbVoVFVPI
Expensive but oh so desirable!
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Cough..... jings :shock
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Just ordered one , thanks!
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Apart from the obvious quality and the fact that they are hand made, I really don't get the attraction. Beautiful things but as a vice I'm not convinced that they are any better than many other things out there.
Cheers
Ben
(proud owner and abuser of several Veniard No.4 Spring levers)
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£2000!
£400 in 1989, £460 in 2007, £2000 in 2014.
Must be the recession ;)
This is the vice I want...stunning quality and great that it converts to a tube vice. For 360 euros its got to be a bargin.
http://www.artisticflies.com/COTTARELLI_VISE/COTTARELLI_VISE.html
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Wow. £2k! Bit steep for me.
Ben, same as with fly rods I guess. The very very best may give you what, +5-10% performance for say 4-5 times the price. It's a personal choice as to whether it's worth it.
I doubt anyone buying this vice will expect their flies to turn out three times better than their £650 quid one. They'll be splurging because, (1) it looks great (2) it feels great, and (3) it says something about their seriousness as a fly tyer and (4) any of a thousand other emotional responses that make us buy things we don't really need but can easily afford.
Will
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Must say they are smashing looking vices , but far from 2k worth . I personally think that the maker and the seller are extracting the urine . But when it comes to fooling the public the rainbow basher brigade are easy parted with there cash . ( Owner of a scottie weaver for countless years ) :D
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...and they are all sold.
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But when it comes to fooling the public the rainbow basher brigade are easy parted with there cash . ( Owner of a scottie weaver for countless years ) :D
What does that mean :z8
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Don't think many rainbow bashers will be buying Waldron's. If you were looking at the guys on tyers row at the BFFI this year the most prevelant vice type would be a waldron. And of those who didn't bring a waldron many have one at home.
Many anglers pay £600+ for one rod (they may have several costing that much) and nobody makes comment. The LAW vice is as near a bespoke precision machine as you can get, so it is desirable therefore it costs. It won't make you a better tyer than if you used a weaver, or any other vice for that matter, its just nice to use some quality craftsmanship if you can.
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"Many anglers pay £600+ for one rod (they may have several costing that much) and nobody makes comment."
Aye the same whiny dullards will comment Peter. As for rod prices - and the rest - Hardy Artisan DH rod £1600 - top models from Sage or Guideline DH rod £900 - Bruce and Walker Double Speycaster £1400. I can name a few modern cane rod builders who will charge you £2000 to £5000 per rod. Oh and I can find you dealers selling veteran cane rods made by a very elite group of builders for more thousands than that!
The LAW is an exceptional vice and very few were made. I was really surprised to hear Phil Holding had managed to get Lawrence working again - he had firmly retired! Lawrence had no desire to start making vices again so if this funds another saltwater trip for him - good for him!
We knew LAW vices were worth much more used than when they were bought new because a couple were sold at auction in the last year or so. I'm not sure what the sale of new LAW vices does to the value of those already out there but I sort of think the high price asked preserves the value of those already in circulation. I'd also speculate that a couple if not all of these new vices will be treated more as collectors items than working vices.
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I'd also speculate that a couple if not all of these new vices will be treated more as collectors items than working vices.
And that is a great shame indeed, it's nice to preserve things for the sake of posterity in a collection but if it was designed to be used - to be useful - then it should be, or at least given the chance to be.
If I had the necessary coin kicking around to buy such a thing, without batting an eye at the price tag, then what I did with 'my' LAW would be my business..... chances are I'd be too busy fishing in Tierra del Fuego or somewhere equally on my wish list than tying flies...... even on a £2k vice.
H :cool:
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I sold my LAW,
and that was my stupidest move in my entire FF-related life.
...it IS the most perfect vise, really. one has to use it to understand it.
it is simply boringly perfect.
that's why I sold it. :roll
...AND: I was thinking that the actual resale- price will be a cure for my temporary income-crisis...S T U P I D.
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even on a £2k vice.
Which is the issue..its A £460 vice (last retail price, but lets say £800 if we are generous and say materials have gone up in price) which is being sold for £2k. Hey ho.
And that is why no one complains about a £600 rod (I have several way over that price) because a £600 rod has a retail price of £600, not £2000.
Just a thought.
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A £600 rod is a £600 rod, sorry rob it aint its about £50 of materials & labour & a shit load of profit.
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A £600 rod is a £600 rod, sorry rob it aint its about £50 of materials & labour & a shit load of profit.
But retail is retail...thats what I mean. You dont put a a rod that retails at £600 up for £2000. I have no doubt the vice is lovely, but retail has gone up 400%...ouch.
(Ok, some people do..lol)
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Rob you are missing the point. The LAW Vice has been out of production for several years. Lawrence retired - he stopped making vices quite happily and went fishing. Last time I saw him he was just back from Los Rochas. Meanwhile the value of the small number of vices he made had gone up. Important point that, he made a limited number of vices - I'd have one now but stupidly was unwilling to wait 18 months.
I'd take issue with describing the price Lawrence charged for his vices as retail. If he had worked as a manufacturer, setting a proper profit margin, selling his products to retail shops, based on the workshop costs and a realistic hourly rate for his time making each vice, the trade price would have been higher than the £400 to £460 he charged. That would have set a retail price maybe double the price Lawrence charged and no retail shop at that time would have dared try and sell a vice for £800. The reality is Lawrence did not make vices as a business, it was a hobby, he enjoyed the design challenge and the people (actually I think he got a bit bored making the same thing time after time.)
Thing is, since Lawrence retired a couple of LAW vices sold at auction over the past year or two and fetched £1400 and £1600 - I hear one sold privately for more. So £2000 per vice was the retail price needed to get Lawrence back in his workshop, making vices which are accruing in value - like rare old wine or books - like the copy of an old edition of Kelson selling for £350 at Coch Y Bonduhu - you really think that should be selling at the original cover price? And the proof is that within a week those few vices on offer were sold.
Oh and if you want a realistic rod comparison a £600 factory made rod is not the right one. A fine rod made by a top named builder in a small workshop is a realistic comparison, so check the retail on a Barder or a Sweetgrass as examples, both sell for more that £2000 and there is a waiting time for both.
Magnus
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Magnus, I think you are reading way way too much into my original comment.
Meanwhile the value of the small number of vices he made had gone up. Important point that, he made a limited number of vicesDon't dispute that. If someone wants to pay a premium for "limited editions", then that's their business. Feel sorry for those that bought the original "limited edition" vice only to find out it was not as "limited" as they thought . :z8
I'd take issue with describing the price Lawrence charged for his vices as retail.......selling his products to retail shops, ...........no retail shop at that time would have dared try and sell a vice for £800. So it was a retail price? If he did not make money on that then that was perhaps not a great move?
So £2000 per vice was the retail price needed to get Lawrence back in his workshopWhich is why he has just come back from a nice fishing trip :) And good luck to him on that! :z16
- like the copy of an old edition of Kelson selling for £350 at Coch Y Bonduhu - you really think that should be selling at the original cover price? Nope, as that is a rare book that is original. If, however, I reprinted that book, would you expect to pay £350? I doubt it. Would you expect to pay less? Probably.
Oh and if you want a realistic rod comparison a £600 factory made rod is not the right one. A fine rod made by a top named builder in a small workshop is a realistic comparison, so check the retail on a Barder or a Sweetgrass as examples, both sell for more that £2000 and there is a waiting time for both. It was not myself that used the £600 rod as a comparison, the rod came into the equation when it was mentioned that you would not complain about buying a £600 rod. I agree, it’s not the same thing. Knowing a couple of Barder owners, and having used a Barder barbell rod I can fully appreciate the quality and time and effort that goes into a quality product. Again, no issues what so ever on that.
My original comment, which was about the £2000 price tag for the vice was based on knowing the original retail price and also the price they go for. It was not questioning the quality of the vice, or indeed the “value” to an individual, because the value is only its value if someone is willing to pay the price. People were, so therefore the value is £2000 to certain individuals……but it’s still an “ouch” in anyone’s book as others have commented on. And that is all I was saying.
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Rob you get my vote for the best number of multi-quotes I have ever seen on this forum or anywhere else.
As far as this one goes chaps I think we can all agree it's a fearsome amount of money for a vice but, when you want and can afford the very best, then why drive a Celica when you could drive a Lexus :?
H :cool:
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Interesting points raised here, would be nice to own one, great things but I'd rather have the £600 rod personally (despite it only being worth £50 ZX2).
Rob, for future reference, if you're going to argue with Magnum do yourself the favour and him the courtesy of using spell check if you want to be taken every vaguely seriously. I'd love to know the stiffness of that Barbell rod :z4
Off to happily tie some flies on my Weaver with loose wobbly rotary function.
Ben
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Rob, for future reference, if you're going to argue with Magnum do yourself the favour and him the courtesy of using spell check if you want to be taken every vaguely seriously. I'd love to know the stiffness of that Barbell rod :z4
I did not realise one spelling mistake means that someones view is immediatly worthless. I will remember that one.
And ironically, it was a spell check on Microsoft Outlook that changed Barbel to Barbell!
And perhaps you could possibly spell his name correctly?