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Home => Rod Building => Topic started by: Ben_D on January 28, 2014, 20:06:47 PM

Title: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on January 28, 2014, 20:06:47 PM
How long would it take you on average to put a rod together assuming you had a preformed handle (or built handle ready to glue), guide feet smoothed where required etc and all the other bits required sat in front of you?  I'm talking here about build time not the time it takes for whipping epoxy to dry, just the time to assemble.  Assume double leg snakes.

Also, how long would it take you to apply epoxy to a stripping guide whipping?

Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on January 29, 2014, 08:20:26 AM
Well..with my form currently...18 months!

Its a strange question but if I sit down and have no distractions, I managed a PFFA #9 from components to built rod (minus epoxy) in 5 hours. That included a 3 wrap tipping to each ferrule and the two stripping guides.

Applying epoxy just to a stripping guide? 5 minutes including the mixing, but then a visit every 10 minutes in the first hour to check, and then a recote if required the next day. (depends if using Lite or regular or if the fist coat soaked in if not using CP).

Are your Chinese rod builders not building rods quick enough for you?? ;)
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on January 29, 2014, 10:32:16 AM
It is a strange kind of question Dude  :z7

As it happens i sat yesterday with an Epic Salsa blank, a roll of cinnamon pearsalls silk and a selection of fine wire double leg snake rings pre-ground (as i do them on receipt :wink) i also had a cork handle i had pre-bored and a nice reel seat that doesn't need anything other than fitting.

It took me 10mins to mark out the blank, an hour to whip on all the double leg rings and another 20mins to assemble the handle, grip/seat took an hour to go hard enough to handle, then i finished the butt section with the butt ring, winding check and text, this took another 30 mins. It is now ready to epoxy. Remember i also whip by hand so don't know if that has an effect?

So i suppose the physical time spent building was 2hrs, however it took me all morning so about 4 hrs to get to a state ready to epoxy (plenty tea :wink) The prep work done previously probably amounted to an hour or so

Once i start epoxy work, the Silk will get 3 very thin coats, but normally i would use 2 slightly thicker coats for nylon thread.
It takes me about 20mins to do a whole rod per coat. So i guess thats 2.5mins per ring, probably slightly longer for the thicker mix maybe 3 mins max per ring. The pot life of most epoxies seems to be between 25 and 45 mins depending on the room temp and the brand so i guess i'm governed by that, but i get a whole rod out of one mix (4cc's) with no problems. I generally get 6 mixes per pack.
Once applied i leave them to turn over night, generally about 10-12hrs, then leave another 10-12 hrs before applying the second coat, etc. Done about 8pm it gives you a couple of hours to make sure all is well.

Hope that helps, but it all depends how you work and organise yourself. :z18

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on January 29, 2014, 11:50:40 AM
Cheers guys, just interested to know how long it takes someone who has been doing it for a while. Takes me an awful lot longer than that to get the components on  :z4

Probably taking about 5 mins each to put one coat of epoxy on each guide.  Going to try Threadmaster Lite next, although I like the finish I get from Flexcoat, it is always fairly gloopy to apply unless well warm which makes it start to gel.  I don't feel Flexcoat really soaks in well and requires quite abit of pressure or turns of the blank against the brush to get it to penetrate well. 

How do you guys rate Threadmaster against Flexcoat?


Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on January 29, 2014, 14:53:05 PM
This should help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCtafKSiD38


Notice he just "gloops" it on to start with, then goes back with the flame and more finish. Even if the epoxy is going a bit thick, the flame liquifies it again.

It looks brutal, but it works.

As I told you in the shop, I have moved to a different make now but Threadmaster and Diamond Coat are meant to be good. I have always used Flex Coat but I will let you know how I get on with the new stuff I have.
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on January 29, 2014, 15:46:36 PM
I much prefer quick thin coats. Flexcoat lite only goes gloopy if you take too long, sometimes i get that on the last ring or 2 of a longer rod or if i have taken too long on ferrules. I much prefer to build up layers with the first just enough to soak into the thread, the second enough to cover the surface to make it smooth and a third if required to achieve a perfect coverage. You can do it really quick if you don't get too precious about it and have a rod turner, its far more involved if you don't have the turner.
The self levelling properties of the flexcoat work best with thinner coats :wink

It lasts longer in the pot if you mix up less, i usually use a max of 2cc's hardener and 2cc's resin, sometimes i'll even only use 1cc of each but the mix becomes more critical regarding getting the balance right (2cc of each is a bit more tolerant) If you see what i mean. 4cc's will do a full 10ft rod with plenty left for the bin.

Flames and blanks don't mix in my experience :z10 i experimented with it and there is a critical point where the focussed heat melts the resin in the blank, you get no warning between solid and limp. Based on that i worry about what the heat does to the blank that you don't know about :z6 far too easy to wreck a blank for my liking.

I'm a long term Flexcoat lite fan :z16 have tried quite a few others without any real benefits, i have gotten some threadmaster lite this time (i got in syringe packs like the flexcoat for the first time) as i could get not Flexcoat lite in the UK (temporarily out of stock in the packs i like) So we shall see.

I shall let you know.

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on January 29, 2014, 17:28:00 PM
Cheers guys  :z16

I think I'm just dithering and being too slow with it.  I've gone away from doing it in the turner I use for drying and now do it on my wrapper as I can turn whichever way I like or as fast or slow as I like.  The Stonefly dryer rotates very slowly, a bit too slow for my liking. 

The way I've been applying is to put minimal amount on the brush and turn the blank against it until all the thread has gone dark, that way I know it has soaked in and I have not got excess that is likely to cause any build up resulting in a wavy finish.  I think I'm just being too careful, finish is always spot on, it just seems to take forever to get it on.

I do use a flame to take out any bubbles, I put the side of a lighter flame about 5mm from the blank and turn it so I doubt I'm heating it enough to damage anything.  A few of my sticks have been well twatted now and are still in one piece!  A bit of heat really helps when doing a large area like over the logo and I've started applying finish along the length of the blank rather than by turning it against the brush, I seem to get it level that way every time.  I take your point about over heating though Sandy

Has anyone experimented with or know anything of the UV stuff that some of The Far east factories are using?

Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Peter McCallum on January 29, 2014, 23:15:28 PM


Has anyone experimented with or know anything of the UV stuff that some of The Far east factories are using?



 You mean Bug Bond Dude  :wink :X2
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on January 29, 2014, 23:28:04 PM
You mean Bug Bond Dude  :wink :X2

No Pete, I don't mean bug bond  :z4

Don't think it would be flexible enough but apparently there are flexible UV epoxies being used for rods.

Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on January 30, 2014, 07:55:40 AM

Don't think it would be flexible enough but apparently there are flexible UV epoxies being used for rods.


Interestingly, UV resin has been used for a long time, at least 10 years. There were a couple of US custom builders raving about it, one of them being Merrick Tackle. I did a quick search as I remembered Rodbuilder Magazine doing some tests and lo and behold, I found the company who supplied the UV stuff commercially, www.epoxycoatings.com However, they seem to have gone bust as the website is just links and the name is for sale :(. The test showed yellowing after a period of time, lack of levelling and a supstanded finish overall.

I also found some feedback from Lamiglas who suggested that the UV cure stuff does not bond to the blanks surface anywhere near as well as normal epoxy and is prone to, as they put it, "popping off" when flexed over a period of time.

On that note I did a quick search in the technical library here at work. Epoxy is classed as an adhesive whilst UV resin/acrylic is classed as a coating. This may explain the UV stuff not adhereing to blanks.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Matt Henderson on January 30, 2014, 08:09:37 AM
It would probably take me a week of evenings.  Using three a night.  With regards to flexcoat lite I tend to do a four peice rod in two sections at a time, and just accept a lot of wastage.  At one point I tried to cut down to 2 coats but now I just accept that three thin coats gives a much better finish. 

Matt
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on January 30, 2014, 08:17:18 AM
Damn it...just found another bit in our reference library...you can get UV cure adhesive resins...not just coatings, BUT, they will not flow and coat a wrap. They are mainly used by dentists to do invisible repairs as the UV penetrates the tooth and allows the resin to set.

Anyway, ...the cost is high, the correct lighting is expensive and I would hazard to guess that it is beyond the requirements of a home build rodbuilder :)
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on January 30, 2014, 13:04:17 PM
Sneak peak at progress thus far

Ginger and Salsa- Spicy :z12

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/skuesapprentice/epicsalsa1.jpg) (http://s252.photobucket.com/user/skuesapprentice/media/epicsalsa1.jpg.html)

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh7/skuesapprentice/epicsalsa2.jpg) (http://s252.photobucket.com/user/skuesapprentice/media/epicsalsa2.jpg.html)

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Allan Liddle on January 30, 2014, 13:07:39 PM
Looking good Sandy, lookin very good  :z16
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Mike Barrio on January 30, 2014, 13:34:41 PM
Original ................ nice!

Cheers
Mike
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on January 30, 2014, 14:50:33 PM
Nice, liking the colour of the blank.  What seat is that?


Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on January 30, 2014, 15:09:19 PM
its an ALPS nickel silver one with a Figured Rosewood insert :z16

the thread looks great once epoxied, should turn out nice :z18

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: troutist on February 10, 2014, 10:22:30 AM
ALPS good reel seats!
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 10, 2014, 10:53:55 AM
ALPS good reel seats!

Mine is sat at the post office :(

Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: troutist on February 10, 2014, 12:56:21 PM
The longer you wait, the greater the joy of the presence!
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 11, 2014, 07:35:06 AM
The longer you wait, the greater the joy of the presence!

If only...its going straight back!!!  :roll
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Mike Barrio on February 11, 2014, 08:41:32 AM
What's up with it Rob?
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 11, 2014, 09:20:30 AM
What's up with it Rob?

When I spoke to the supplier they said it was suitable for light rods, 1-5 weight. On looking at the reference number on the invoice, it seems the seat I have been sent is for #7 + and is the same one Ben has ordered for his switch rod.

Its in the post office still, so not seen the size, but it does appear it will be too large for my #4 bugging rod I am building :( The small one is not available so the search continues!
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Mike Barrio on February 11, 2014, 09:22:43 AM
Sourcing components is half the fun :z4
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 11, 2014, 11:29:21 AM
Sourcing components is half the fun :z4

No its not Mike...

Ordered 20 Flor grade corks...turned up...no where near Flor.

Ordered guides based on chart on website...too small...chart is not to scale as I found out!

Ordered reel seat....probably not what I want


Cost so far 120 and I have nowt to show for it!...grrrr
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on February 11, 2014, 18:09:51 PM
When I spoke to the supplier they said it was suitable for light rods, 1-5 weight. On looking at the reference number on the invoice, it seems the seat I have been sent is for #7 + and is the same one Ben has ordered for his switch rod.

Its in the post office still, so not seen the size, but it does appear it will be too large for my #4 bugging rod I am building :( The small one is not available so the search continues!

Mate, that triangular shaped thing only comes in one size and that size is quite big.  Trying to get a non rank lightweight reel seat in the UK is very difficult, or even just a non rank seat for any weight of rod. H&H keep REC which are decent but not cheap.

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Duncan Inglis on February 12, 2014, 14:54:52 PM
Re epoxy for the whippings, have you tried a hair drier or hot air gun on the whippings, I've used this a few times and found it takes out the bubbles no prob and allows the epoxy to flow better and soak into the thread. You have to watch you don't get it too hot and note that the heat also cuts the cure time.
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on February 12, 2014, 18:49:27 PM
I've a wood burner in the room I use for epoxy so the thought using anything that moves air around freaks me out a little!!  Hard to keep things dust free as it is thanks to the stove, just been using a flash of lighter flame which seems to do the job just fine providing I'm careful.  A mall heat gun would probably be better if in a more sterile environment.

Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: troutist on February 12, 2014, 18:54:20 PM
Better alcohol burner still nothing!
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Will Shaw on February 12, 2014, 23:12:26 PM

"Hard to keep things dust free as it is"

Yeah, all that dusting you do...

 :z4  :z4
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on February 12, 2014, 23:42:26 PM
"Hard to keep things dust free as it is"

Yeah, all that dusting you do...

 :z4  :z4

At least once a day, Will.  Same goes for running round with the hoover if I'm using any rod finish.  My place has never been so frequently cleaned  :z4
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 13, 2014, 07:58:11 AM
Well, Ben "doom and gloom" Dixon  :wink had me worried about the reel seat, but on collecting it from the Post Office it turns out that it's fine, although he still thinks its too big....and this is from a man that drives a Surf!!  :X2

(http://www.guidesnblanks.com/images/cah_12lt_large.jpg)

However, as always, I spotted another seat that I fancy, so once more, I am trying to find a stockist in Europe. Cass is off to the US in a couple of weeks so I may just hang on. She is already ear marked to bring back 100 corks!..lol

Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on February 13, 2014, 09:37:00 AM
Rob,

It is a saltwater seat by your own admission, if you want to go and put that on to a 4wt bugging rod then on you go mate, I'm sure it will look great  :z4


Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on February 13, 2014, 09:51:48 AM
Rob,

It is a saltwater seat by your own admission, if you want to go and put that on to a 4wt bugging rod then on you go mate, I'm sure it will look great  :z4

 :z4 :z4 Saltwater Bugging is the new craze!!!

Just ordered something a little different :)...want to buy a saltwater silver Alps reelseat?  :X2 Will suit a Switch rod!
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on March 02, 2014, 08:36:31 AM
I'm a long term Flexcoat lite fan :z16 have tried quite a few others without any real benefits, i have gotten some threadmaster lite this time (i got in syringe packs like the flexcoat for the first time) as i could get not Flexcoat lite in the UK (temporarily out of stock in the packs i like) So we shall see.

I'm 3 builds in with the Threadmaster Lite and i like it :z12
It seems to be slightly less viscous than the Flexcoat and has less issues holding Air bubbles (i think Rob mentioned this elsewhere, so we agree on something for a change :X2) It definately goes on better and levels itself out equally as well :z16

I reckon it takes longer to cure, but does seem to have a better finish, although it has a slight Yellowish cast compared to the more clear Flexcoat. The colour has made no difference and i don't think it would unless you were going to try for that completely invisible look on Cane, or were building on a white blank :z8

I will be using Threadmaster Lite in the future, especially as in the UK it is cheaper to buy.
I have definately found it easier to use and giving a better finish :z18

Cheers

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on March 02, 2014, 08:51:46 AM
Cool, at least I know!!

Could have used that info a month ago, just bought a trade pack of standard Flexcoat  :z4  I was about to hit buy on Threadmaster but sat and took stock of the fact that I had been happy with every Flexcoat finish I've achieved once I went to syringes for measurement but, you do have to be careful how you apply it if you want to put on a very thin first coat, a thin layer on dry thread is very hard to get even and it takes time.  It needs enough on to flow properly to level well IMO.  I'm using standard stuff and for the moment I think I'll stick with it (mainly due to the volume I have).

Cheers

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Sandy Nelson on March 02, 2014, 09:05:19 AM
Could have used that info a month ago,

I didn't know enough a month ago :z7 to feel i could comment.
Never had a problem with Flexcoat either it just now more expensive to buy in the UK than Threadmaster, which is why i thought i'd try the other :z16 Shouldn't be an issue with a trade pack though :wink

Its all good stuff anyway, as you say getting the quantities right is the key, once thats in hand its a piece of cake :z18

Sandy
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on March 03, 2014, 07:38:19 AM
Sandy, I was reading at the weekend that Threadmaster Lite takes twice as long to cure than standard Threadmaster.

To give you an idea, I epoxied an 11 foot worming rod at the weekend. I did a coat saturday morning and was able to put a second coat on at 2pm. I stopped the turner at 6pm and it was rock hard by Sunday morning.

I would say it was taking 4 hours to loose the tackiness and a be ready for a second coat.

That was in a room around 23-24 degrees.

I found it levels on the blank much better than Threadmaster.

I am going to use ProKote Lite on my bugging rod as the standard Threadmaster I have is perhaps a little too heavy for such a light rod.
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Ben_D on March 03, 2014, 08:18:27 AM
Sandy,

I think David Norwich still has trade pack of standard Flexcoat, he is by far the cheapest I have found and service is always first class.


Off fishing!

Ben
Title: Re: Build Time - Sandy / Rob
Post by: Rob Brownfield on March 03, 2014, 09:34:01 AM
Sandy,

I think David Norwich still has trade pack of standard Flexcoat, he is by far the cheapest I have found and service is always first class.


Off fishing!

Ben

Psssst...Buy through Summerlands...about 2/3's the price. For example, 2oz bottles, 13 at Summerlands, 21 through G n' B..plus you dont get charged "Highlands and Islands" rate for Aberdeen postage.

http://www.summerlands-tackle.co.uk/flex-coat-2-oz-flex-coat-super-kit.html?___store=default