Index => Fly Tying => Topic started by: Sandy Nelson on 19/05/2013 at 20:51
Title: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 19/05/2013 at 20:51
Having become a bit of a convert to the DHE i have some wee questions for those who swear by them.
I have been using costal deer hair for the size 12 and 14's i've been tying and it is perfect, well in my eyes anyway, but i notice Bob reccomends using snowshoe on smaller sizes and i have historically preferred using Snowshoe on all my DHE style emergers (i have not been keen on tying with Deer hair as i thought it was too spiky :X1 What a spaz :roll), but i have problems with it floating which is why i've never been a fan of the fly :X1 So having discovered that a DHE tied with Deer hair actually floats :z16 and catches fish i want to try tying the 16's and 18's with some Deer hair instead of snowshoe. Lakeland have deer hair patches designed for Compara duns that is supposed to suit smaller sizes, has anyone tried it? would it be better than the coastal deer i've been using or just the same? i reckon i could tie the 16's with the coastal if need be, but you know what like :X2
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 19/05/2013 at 21:19
Comparadun hair is good stuff. Orvis sell it, ask Kev about it :z4
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Noel Kelly on 19/05/2013 at 22:02
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 19/05/2013 at 22:05
Sandy, I have been using the comparadun hair from Orvis this season on DHE from size 16 to 20 and it works just fine and floats extremely well. I have put some gink on the hair although I do not know if I need to.
Eddie.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Allan Liddle on 19/05/2013 at 23:42
Yup you can do it with good quality deer hair Sandy, but the bulk kinda kills the desired profile. Switch to the Dirty Duster :wink
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Andy Finlay on 20/05/2013 at 06:42
I've seen there's a DHE & a DHE 2.0 step by step video by Hans Weilenmann on you tube. Is there any benefit of one vs the other?
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 08:12
Yup you can do it with good quality deer hair Sandy, but the bulk kinda kills the desired profile. Switch to the Dirty Duster :wink
Cheers Alan
I've the DD tied down to 24's in various shades already :z18 I was just thinking a size 18 DHE would be rather good and getting the profile was my concern, while maintaining the floatability, hence the question. Having found the snowshoe to be less than ideal, for me anyway :z6, and being impressed with the deer hair option on the larger hooks i figured a finer hair would do the job nicely, i just didn't know which hair would be finer than the coastal deer i've got.
Will get some comparadun hair to see what it is like, i see i can get it dyed a nice dun colour too, hmmmm.......size 18 BWO's.......... :z12 It has to be tried :z16
Thanks for all the tips though guys :z18
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Peter McCallum on 20/05/2013 at 08:20
Interesting your comment re snowshoe. I've never had a problem with it sinking Sandy, putting gink on it should float it and its really fine. :z8
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 08:36
Peter
I've tried snowshoe loads of times as i have had an aversion to Deer hair for most of my tying life :roll, I have a deep seated belief (that is slowly dissapating :z16) that fish spit out spiky flies, so have always gone for a nice soft material where i can. Hence the spiders and CDC fetishes :z7 I have a few Shoes in different colours and really like tying with it, but i can never get the bloody stuff to float for very long, even with Gink,aquel, watershed or dry shake, Dry Shake works best but makes the body float too :X1. I often end up using it with CDC on top, that works but adds to the tying time and trickiness and i'm getting lazy in my old age :X2. Plus the profile of the DHE doesn't lend itself to the use of cdc.
Having persuaded myself into trying Deer Hair again, due to the comments on the forum, i'm impressed with the way it works so wanted a smaller size solution.
My only thought would be, when i tie with Snowshoe hair i remove all the soft underfibers to make the tying slimmer, could this be the floatation problem? perhaps its the underfibers that help it float or retain floatant, i know from looking at them the longer fibres tend to be more glossy :z8 Any ideas?
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 11:19
Yup, it’s a natural progression to emulate the success of the 12’s and 14’s in smaller sizes but I too have had concerns when tying 16’s and a severe doubt about using deer hair for anything smaller. I tied a few 16’s a couple of weeks ago with ‘coastal’ hair (I use this word cautiously as I remember Peter Smith raging about the indiscriminate use of this term for any type of fine deer hair) I thought that the attraction of deer hair is the fact that it is hollow, which holds air, therefore the longer the hair section the more air that is trapped. For all intents and purposes each strand is a long cone and if tying small flies and subsequently only using the finer tips of the hair then wouldn’t that negate the primary properties of the material? I’m assuming that at some point the tip of the cone becomes solid. Ok so the hair bundle could be ginked and act like a shuttlecock but does the potential hassle merit its’ use over CDC? Don’t you think CDC is a suitable alternative Sandy? I had this snowshoe discussion with Peter & Kev not too long ago with one (I’m not going to say which in-case I misquote anyone) advocating the use of the underfur & the other saying to junk it. Perhaps they might help me out and give correct details. Both these guys are top dressers and can obviously make either or work, as for me I think it is sh8t…………..if I keep the underfur (or some of ) I get a bulky ‘tie in’ & if I remove the underfur I get a long uneven whispy thin mess of rubbish that won’t float. I have been enlightened many times in the past and am hoping that an upcoming trip north will allow me to see how it’s done in reality. I bought 5 or so colours of ‘shoe’ thinking that I was about to embark on a game changer when I had lost all faith in CDC (this was the dark ‘pre gel’ era) but it turned out to be a major disappointment. Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 12:02
Don’t you think CDC is a suitable alternative Sandy?
Not for a DHE the way i've been tying them :z6, It is perfect for shuttlecock style flies and i use it all the time. I also spin the cdc for small F-Fly type emergers and it is lovely, but My DHE's have been working best with a comparadun style wing, i've been tying it so it fans out to form half a halo, a lot like clipping the bottom of a full hackle :z7 (this is the obvious option, as Alan said earlier) I'll post a picture of what i've been doing when i get home later :z16 It may just be the way i've interpreted the pattern, but i thought i had the concept in my head when i tied them, they certainley work better than anything i've done before on these lines, so don't intend to change anything. CDC would collapse if it was tied in a similar way and although it would float, it wouldn't give the impression of struggling legs that the deer hair gives or the outriggers to cock the fly in the right way, i've a feeling thats what happens with the snowshoe too as it is possibly,also too soft to fan out properly, so floats for a few casts until the fan collapses and then starts to sink :z6.
I've ordered some Comparadun hair, so we shall see if i can do what i'm thinking, or whether going to an 18 DHE is a practical step too far, But Eddie is getting it to work so i am encouraged :z18
Your comment about the cone and the tips, i'd agree with completely :z16, which is why i asked if there was something that existed that suited the situation ,as i reckon if i used the Coastal hair the tips might not float like they do on the bigger flies.
All good stuff, thanks again
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 12:16
Ok, Comparadun, 180 degree or 135 degree? Leg profile visible above water to the trout or actually touching the surface?
I tie in a decent amount of hair and this can be fanned out but I tend to be agricultural and let it sit ‘willy nilly’. I have thought about a sparse CDC fibre spun collar, which I think is a good addition to many a pattern to sort of break up the boring outline of the DHE.
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 12:30
:X1 I'll get my protractor out when i get home, But I probably go about 137.67' on a 14 and vary it by the square root of the decrease/increase in hook size. This of course is entirely dependant on the curve of the shank and the available gape for the specific pattern of hook, otherwise the the abdomen will not sit at the prescribed angle in the water which is a closely guarded secret :wink
As for CDC collars, all i can say is Hairy Thorax :z4
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Allan Liddle on 20/05/2013 at 12:44
135 degree for DHE's :z16 :wink
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 12:51
TWATZ :X2
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Mike Barrio on 20/05/2013 at 13:15
:z4 :z4 :z4
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Marc Fauvet on 20/05/2013 at 13:39
:z4 :z4 :z4
tons and tons of most excellent points in the comments above :z16
hey Sandy ! personally, for the wing, atm i can't see past EP International fibers. (permanently treated to float) as a 'standard dry fly' it floats all day. pull the fly under, it pops back up, all day. slime it on a fish, rinse it off, false cast twice and it's back to floating all day.
it comes in many colors so just mix to match the strands just like dubbing and trim to shape after the completion of the fly. it's such an easy material to work with.
cheers, marc
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 14:13
Hi Marc
Interesting point, but i have a Question, where does the positive buoyancy come from? I can understand waterproofing the fibres to help them float on the surface, if they don't collect the moisture then they won't sink easily, but how does it pop back up again once it goes under? The deer hair has air inside it so acts like a lifejacket and i could see how it floats, i understand how CDC traps air in the feathers due to the tiny hairs, but i can't see where the EP gets this property? although it must hold air to pop back up Any ideas?. I'm not being awkward i'm genuinely interested as i use EP for saltwater flies and it sinks well once it is saturated, in fact one of the properties i use it for, is it dries quick on a backcast so it becomes lighter and easier to cast, but once in the water it displaces its air quite quickly so it can sink.
What do you waterproof it with? I've got EP in all sorts of colours and this could be an interesting experiment
Nice fly by the way :z16
Cheers
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Peter McCallum on 20/05/2013 at 14:25
135 ??? you been getting the protractor out again Al :X2 :X2 :z12
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Allan Liddle on 20/05/2013 at 16:30
Yup if it dosen't make the exact grade it gets cut up again :z4 :z4 :X1 :z4 :z4
TWAT'S a place in Orkney :z4 :z4
Sandy does the positive boyancy not come from the thorax, wing material and any floatant against the 'keel' effect of the hook?
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Marc Fauvet on 20/05/2013 at 16:50
hi Sandy, although not stated on the website, i suspect they might be hollow similar to the much more expensive Tiemco Aero-Wing or polypropylene. (can't state as fact) this specific product is named EP International Trigger Point made specifically by Mick Hall for EP. this is not the same fibers as the standard EP used for streamers and such.
funny D'Oh ! moment happened to me whilst chatting with Mick Hall at a fair in Stockholm two years back. i was telling him how much i liked the EP TP fibers and he just smiled/smirked and told me he was their creator ! :roll :roll :roll (and proceded to give me a handfull of packs :z12)
floatant: the only thing i ever use is Aquel. being an 'ingrained habit' from other materials i'll usually put some on the EP TP as well but it probably doesn't need it, specially in slow or still waters.
cheers, marc
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 17:04
Marc
That would make sense, it explains why the EP i tried sunk :z6, will keep an eye peeled for some.
Alan
By Positive buoyancy, i was referring to the fact that when it is submerged, the fly resurfaces. The thorax, wing, floatant, etc all help the fly float, but it requires air to make the fly rise back up through the water. I was wondering how it achieves this and i think Marc has now answered that query :z18
Cheers
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Irvine Ross on 20/05/2013 at 19:37
, but My DHE's have been working best with a comparadun style wing, i've been tying it so it fans out to form half a halo, a lot like clipping the bottom of a full hackle Sandy
Sandy
Comparadun style???? that's not the way Bob Wyatt ties them, nor do I.
I suspect if you try comparadun style with Snowshoe hair it will not be very successful. You need to trap air in the clump of hair forming the wing to make it float consistently for a long time. If you fan out the hair it will not trap air between the fibres.
Irvine
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 20:05
Nice fly Marc :z16 I must admit that I do like natural over synthetics but beggars can't be choosers.
A picture of the B100 DHE in size 16, as said I really am dubious about tying them smaller using deerhair.
Might Davy Wotton have a material to resolve this problem?
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 20/05/2013 at 20:13
I've tied them down to #18 and caught well on them. They are a pain to tie in that size but I refuse to use snowshoe, mainly because Kev says I should but also because it is a pig to tie with :z4
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 20:21
Aye right, Colonel Blink! is that on a Klinkhamer Supreme size 18!
Seriously though, as Kamasan don't do B100's in 18's what hooks are you tying these on?
Cheers
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 20/05/2013 at 20:30
Orvis 1639's Iain, very similar to a B100.
They are a pain to tie that small but doable for someone my age :z7
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 20/05/2013 at 20:49
ok so I need glasses, and I'm not afraid to say it :X2
Do you have watershed in stock?
Silly question but how do you treat a fibrous yarn with the stuff?
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 20/05/2013 at 20:55
Hi Iain,
Have watershed in stock. Needing specs too, only a matter of time before I go get some!
Just coat the fibres in solution and leave for 24 hours, I usually put watershed onto materials before I tie with them.
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 20/05/2013 at 22:04
This is how i interpreted Bob's instructions, not sure how "right" it is :z7, but it works :z16 and has given me faith in the fly, which i never had before whenever i've tied it wether with Snowshoe or Deer hair, perhaps i have been too stingy in the past. So i don't really care about specifics, just about getting some hair that i can tie on smaller hooks
I ordered some of those Orvis hooks in 18's and 20's aswell so should have some fun tying them too, i don't need glasses and i'm probably older than both of you :z7
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 20/05/2013 at 22:24
Sandy, Looking good, I have tied these on the small Orvis hooks without glasses and I am much older than any of you.
Have fun at the vice,
Eddie. :z18
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Mike Barrio on 20/05/2013 at 22:47
Those look 'fishy' Sandy :z16
Cheers Mike
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 20/05/2013 at 22:59
Nice DHE's those Sandy, I'd fish them :z16
Good to know that it's only Iain & I who are blind :z4
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 21/05/2013 at 00:26
nicely tied fly Sandy.
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Cameron on 21/05/2013 at 07:20
Looking good, I have tied these on the small Orvis hooks without glasses and I am much older than any of you.
I'm seriously thinking of one of the Stonefly magnifier attachments for the vice; too much squinting.
Been following this thread with interest after tying a bunch of 16s the other day. Got some 18 hooks waiting, but think will seek out some finer DH first.
Oh, I've been using Hareline Dubbin's "Hare's Ear Plus Dubbin Natural Hare's Ear #1", HET1 for the bodies. Allows a very fine (as in thin) body, with nice sparkle. And still with some spikiness too
i,
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Matt Henderson on 21/05/2013 at 08:55
I got a magnifying glass and lamp combo thingy off of Hobbycraft a few years back it makes a massive difference for tying small stuff.
Ah those were the days, time to tie flies in the evening after work!
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 21/05/2013 at 11:49
So my first piece of Natural comparadun hair arrived this morning, Awesome service Orvis :z16 Still waiting for the Dun.
So I tried it out some size 20's to see if it would work, interesting experiment as the Hair works perfectly, but the bulk of the tying style might be a bit chunky for the smaller flies, i'm sure it will still work but its not as slim as i would like and i don't think i could tie it much lighter in this way, so for 20's and down i think i'll stick to klinks or DD style flies. However for 16's and 18's i think it will be great :z16, extending my size range in DHE's and hopefully increasing some confidence.
Thanks for all the advice.
here is the flare on the size 20, it works spot on :z16
here is a profile shot along with the Size 12, so the profile and the wing are great just a wee bit on the clunky side, for an Ephemera, but might make a nice wee sedge, even if the wings are pointing the wrong way :z4
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Irvine Ross on 21/05/2013 at 13:26
Nice tying Sandy, I like the look of your #20. I have never tried to tie them that small. The deer hair looks to be very good quality with short black tips and that will help keep them afloat. :z16
Irvine
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Marc Fauvet on 21/05/2013 at 13:26
I think i'm going to like this comparadun hair :z18 Awesome advice, as always :z18 to everyone
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 21/05/2013 at 18:16
This is turning into a 'My DHE's smaller than yours'
Well I'll fold right now!
I have spectaculars, a desk magnifier c/w lamp and as far as I can go is a 17 (212Y) and I'm really unsure if I'd need to go smaller with this fly anyroads. :roll ok I'll get some smaller hooks and comparadun hair. :X1
Some nice flies there guys.
Iain look and see if Maplins are still doing the desk magnifier lamp for £20.
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 21/05/2013 at 18:41
I'm really unsure if I'd need to go smaller with this fly anyroads. :roll
I'm inclined to agree with you on that, i reckon an 18 is plenty small enough for the pattern, especially now i've had a chance to play a bit. Tiny flies are best kept more simple :z16 The 16's look great with the comparadun hair though, and thats what i really wanted it for, just to ditch the snowshoes :z7 on the Smaller upwing patterns.
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 21/05/2013 at 18:54
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 21/05/2013 at 20:36
Gorgeous :z16
Nice hook too :z16
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 21/05/2013 at 22:19
Iain, cracking flee.
Eddie.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Allan Liddle on 21/05/2013 at 22:23
Looking good guys, I'll have to up my game a bit. Sandy why not dispense with the dubbed body in preference to just the tying thread for the size 20's? Might help reduce the bulk / help the profile?
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 21/05/2013 at 22:26
Guys, when I did the 20 I tied it with a Waterhen bloa type body of waxed yellow silk with the tiniest amount of Mole dubbing to keep everything slim.
Even with my ancient eyes and ham fisted tying it seemed to come out not too bad. I would post a picture but flees in the garage and off to bed shortly because as Goolager pointed out previously, I am an auld mannie.
Eddie.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 21/05/2013 at 22:33
Night Night Eddie ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!
Quote
I tied it with a Waterhen bloa type body of waxed yellow silk with the tiniest amount of Mole dubbing
Tied a few like that myself in 12's , 14's :z16
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 21/05/2013 at 22:40
A wonderful fly my go to "damp" fly. Bob Wyatt excelled himself with that one. :)
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 21/05/2013 at 22:52
Well Alan.............. I don't know about that.................how about a caenis version
This is turning into a 'My DHE's smaller than yours' ... Iain look and see if Maplins are still doing the desk magnifier lamp for £20.
Ah, good call. I could probably do with a telescope to view these 26s... cheers iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 22/05/2013 at 07:16
Nice caenis but imitation is not the big issue when these flies abound and the logic of nearer the better is flawed. Sheer numbers mean that even if your imitation is perfection it is highly unlikely the fish will pick it from the masses. Safety in numbers is one of nature's most basic survival strategies. Just watch how the fish behave. Much better to go the other way. A size 8 muddler very often works.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 07:54
Hi "dryfly"
You will notice the fly came curtesy of Guinness :wink. In a snowstorm i tend to use a Sugar Cube shipmans, although the hatch seems to interest the trout more if its on one of our stillwaters, rather than the river :z8.
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 22/05/2013 at 08:00
You will notice the fly came curtesy of Guinness :wink.
Love it even although I'm more of a Murphy's man! :) You certainly tie a mean looking fly, I wish I had your tying skills.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 08:08
:z18
Where about are you based? The DHE is fast becoming my goto pattern as well, so yes a big thanks to Bob, and quite a few of the guys on here who have persuaded me to keep trying with it. :z16 Now it floats , i'm happy :z7
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 22/05/2013 at 09:14
I love good design and the DHE is a design classic.
There are far too many flies “designed” for the wrong reasons, like ego for example, that contribute nothing to fly fishing. Guys sit at a vice and “doodle” with materials then give it some naff name like “The Cairngorm Killer” or something equally daft. These flies make no impact at all on fishing other than further clutter your fly box when you are bored on a winter's evening. They are fun to tie of course and if they help fight off cabin fever then fair enough, but really that's about all that can be said for them.
On the other hand every now and then something really useful like the DHE comes along. Wyatt has put thought into this based on experimentation, skill and decades of fishing experience all over the world, not just some hill loch packed with starving trout that will take anything you throw at them. Have you seen how his tying method has evolved? He now ties the wing in last, does not even bother hiding the clipped wing buts because why would you? He ribs with the thread and can knock up a DHE in a minute. That is real innovation. It's an education and his laid back presentation is a delight to watch on the video. I am told he is a helpful and quite modest man and says his DHE is really just a floating hares ear nymph! . Respect!
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 10:21
Cool nice and close to Perth and some good fishing :z16
I hear you as regards cabin fever, for me it either means rod building,fly tying or armchair fishing on the computer. Flytying usually wins out, as you say it fills boxes and keeps an industry going :z7 but it's better than gettin frustrated stuck behind a screen, dreaming about it :z6 i think we all probably feel like that though :z18
I reckon fishing with Bob would probably be pretty cool too, his books are good. I saw him on the Telly once and he struck me as being just like a lot of my tutors were at college. Chilled :z13
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 22/05/2013 at 10:34
Sandy,
I don't know if you have seen this, but here he is tying the snowshoe version. The deer hair version is done the same way.
I am just blown away by the simplicity of the tying method – the efficiency – the speed – slick – down the hook and back up – it flows just like the river.
He regards the flies as ammo. You could fill a box in a sitting. I just wish I knew where he gets that dark hare fur!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2HSN_-Njc
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 10:52
. I just wish I knew where he gets that dark hare fur!
Off the ears :z16
Nice we video, I notice that's one of Carl's films, I took my lead from the DHE's in his box :wink
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 22/05/2013 at 10:59
Quote
There are far too many flies “designed” for the wrong reasons, like ego for example, that contribute nothing to fly fishing. Guys sit at a vice and “doodle” with materials then give it some naff name like “The Cairngorm Killer” or something equally daft.
Allan, so what's wrong with my 'Kintore Katcher'? You would not believe the amount of fish that have had a really good look at it before admitting that they were already stuffed.
Andy F asked aquestion earlier about the difference in DHE Version I & Version II and I was going to comment but forgot until you brought it up. Forgetting the aesthetic aspect (or should I say possibility of someone thinking that you couldn't finish a fly properly) I don't think that covering up the stubs makes any difference to how it fishes or how it is seen by the fish so why bother indeed. I often cut the CDC stems at the front of Duns/ F-Flies leaving a bit of a 'head' (snipping the corners to give a rounded profile but even this might be anal). The CDC & Elk is a prime example of what I mean (only with deer/Elk hair obviously) and who knows may well have started out as a fly with a dubbed over head. :z8 Fancy flies are nice to see and a way of developing/practicing tying techniques especially during the close season but I like to keep things reasonably simple as I'm quite happy to see flies destroyed by fish & certainly don't mind losing them.
Sandy is that Danvilles spider web your tying the small stuff with?
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 22/05/2013 at 12:36
so what's wrong with my 'Kintore Katcher'? You would not believe the amount of fish that have had a really good look at it before admitting that they were already stuffed.|
Yes I have a few like that too and you know what? As they sat in the vice jaws back on that wild January night they looked the biz, but then I also dreamed of warm spring days, mild upstream zephyrs and rising fish. We do don't we? We have to.
But getting back to things DHE and Wyatt-esque; I have fond memories of following his articles in Fly Fishing and Fly Tying, the evolution of his ideas. Sadly missed spirit lifting stuff. That magazine certainly misses Wyatt's input and much of the recycled where to trite that has replaced it means I seldom buy it any more.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Jim Eddie on 22/05/2013 at 12:49
I love good design and the DHE is a design classic.
There are far too many flies “designed” for the wrong reasons, like ego for example, that contribute nothing to fly fishing. Guys sit at a vice and “doodle” with materials then give it some naff name like “The Cairngorm Killer” or something equally daft. These flies make no impact at all on fishing other than further clutter your fly box when you are bored on a winter's evening. They are fun to tie of course and if they help fight off cabin fever then fair enough, but really that's about all that can be said for them.
On the other hand every now and then something really useful like the DHE comes along. Wyatt has put thought into this based on experimentation, skill and decades of fishing experience all over the world, not just some hill loch packed with starving trout that will take anything you throw at them. Have you seen how his tying method has evolved? He now ties the wing in last, does not even bother hiding the clipped wing buts because why would you? He ribs with the thread and can knock up a DHE in a minute. That is real innovation. It's an education and his laid back presentation is a delight to watch on the video. I am told he is a helpful and quite modest man and says his DHE is really just a floating hares ear nymph! . Respect!
Yes Ego is a terrible thing Backwater but Jealousy and Small Man Syndrome are even worse :wink
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Marc Fauvet on 22/05/2013 at 13:21
New member Dave "dryfly" has agreed to change his username to "Backwater", so that there is no confusion between "dryfly" Dave and "dryflee" Allan. Thanks Dave :z16
Best wishes Mike
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 22/05/2013 at 18:30
If I had an hour or so to fill in I could attempt to tie this onto a tippet
Iain
it's a 24 next to a 14
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 22/05/2013 at 18:36
Iain, nae bad but if you could get half a dozen in 14 16 and 18 to me by Sunday then I could test them up North and West next week as a favour and let you know how they work up there.
Eddie :X2 :X2
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 22/05/2013 at 18:54
I take it that's you just out of bed Eddie?
Aye, I've been hearing about your tying prowess so I know you will have well stocked boxes.
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 19:00
If I had an hour or so to fill in I could attempt to tie this onto a tippet
:z4 :z4 Nice flies ... :z16, funny how threads take on a life of their own.
On the original topic ,i've received the Grey coloured Comparadun hair today, so BWO's here we come :z16
Pleased we now know Dave's name, nice to know who you are talking too :z18
Spent all day building a shed :shock never buy a good value Metal shed unless you have a day to kill, its taken me 7hrs :shock mind you the weather was crap for fishing and i have lots of brownie points now :z4 :z4 At least i know why it was a good price :z6
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 22/05/2013 at 19:22
Looking forward to getting comparadun hair, if you look closely the wee fly has the black tips cut off :shock but it was only ever meant as an experiment.
I need to see a dry on the surface to fish it with confidence so I'm wondering realistically how small I could go from a fishing standpoint?
I recall many moons ago fishing size 19 Klinks tied on 212Y's to very picky fish at Waulkmill and being pleased with the result, perhaps I'll get a chance to throw some 18 DHE's around the margins of a local fishery to find out.
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 19:29
Iain
I've a box full of microflies :z6 but the only one i ever use is a size 20 black klink (well almost :wink). Never feel the need to go smaller, in fact Hamish proved to me a long time ago that there were much better ways to get a trout to take, when they appear to be taking small stuff, It took a good bit of beating round the head but eventually he got me half canned and i gave in :z7 Funnily enough he was right and i've never really looked back and i tend to hook and land the buggers too. :z4
As always there are a couple of exceptions :wink
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 22/05/2013 at 19:50
Guys sit at a vice and “doodle” with materials then give it some naff name like “The Cairngorm Killer” or something equally daft.
That doodling and thought processes that go along with it can be fun, Dave. Tonight I've tied up something called the "Upper Deeside Execution, no footprint, dun". Away to doodle some more, very theraputic.
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Ben Dixon on 22/05/2013 at 20:06
Cheaper than the petrol and much quicker than the last time :wink
Sandy
If it's letterbox size it should be next day, if needing couriered then quicker to get from Andover as something I send to you from Banchory goes via Birmingham ??? Sorry for logging thread!
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 22/05/2013 at 20:44
Aye, I've been hearing about your tying prowess so I know you will have well stocked boxes.
Iain
Someone is telling porkies, I only have a couple of hastily tied beasties to take with me as number one son has failed to return my fly boxes from his honeymoon, being an auld mannie I cannot tie as quickly as I once could.
Eddie :X2 :X2 :X2
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Hamish Young on 22/05/2013 at 21:03
Never feel the need to go smaller, in fact Hamish proved to me a long time ago that there were much better ways to get a trout to take, when they appear to be taking small stuff, It took a good bit of beating round the head but eventually he got me half canned and i gave in :z7 Funnily enough he was right and i've never really looked back and i tend to hook and land the buggers too. :z4
As always there are a couple of exceptions :wink
Sandy
:z12 You'd better come up and try some of the waters up here bonnie lad :wink the DHE will serve you well... plus some old school stuff too :z16
H :cool:
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 21:16
in fact Hamish proved to me a long time ago that there were much better ways to get a trout to take, when they appear to be taking small stuff,
cough it up !!! (use code words if you feel the need to be secretive... :z4)
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 23:03
Marc
I would but you can never get the grannoms back off them. :wink
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 22/05/2013 at 23:24
Folks, I tied a number of these on SLD's which hooks are you using that give the right shape xxx and profile and are light enough to allow best floating ability.
Eddie. :z8
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 22/05/2013 at 23:29
Eddie
Im using B100's in 12-16 and the orvis hooks Ben mentioned in 18-20. Although the 20 I photoed was on a different hook :roll I think it was a 2487BL.
I like the B100 shape and the orvis hook is very similar, it lends itself to the pattern. :z16
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Eddie Sinclair on 22/05/2013 at 23:38
Sandy, Thanks. After fishing these a few times this year I am truly converted. I am going to fish a hares lug and pond olive version on the limestone waters up North next week.
Eddie :z16
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: dryfly on 23/05/2013 at 08:32
Thanks for that Mike and for any confusion caused. :wink
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Bob Wyatt on 26/06/2013 at 01:49
Hi Guys,
I've been reading through this thread and thought I might throw in a few remarks that might help sort out some of the tying and fishing issues for the DHE.
Floating: these flies are meant to sink. Or let's say fish in or under the surface, deeper than a Klinkhamer Special. I think of them as floating nymphs, from the same kennel as old W H Lawrie's 'hatching nymph' series. The wing is primarily a sighter.
Snowshoe Hare foot fur really does the job for me on smaller flies. It compresses so well and a wee tuft goes a long way. I never tie them as small as you guys are going, and rarely go below a 16.
If it's genuine snowshoe hare foot fur, you should have no floating issues. The stuff floats like a cork, and if treated with a dab of floatant will float for hours even after many trout. The natural undyed stuff is highly visible at great distances in low light.
Tying: I tie the DHE as shown in Hans Weilenmann's You Tube video, DHE 2.0. This makes for a nice slim abdomen. I no longer tie the wing in first and cover the deer hair butts with the abdomen dubbing. I tie the wing in after the abdomen and trim the butts at a steep angle (slightly more wedge shaped than in Hans' video). I reckon this gives the wing strong support and keeps it upright.
I usually tie the wing in a semi-Comparadun fan shape. But if you like the fly to ride a bit higher in the water, a Comparadun wing will help. I like the fly body to be completely submerged, so a slim wing keeps the fly body running deeper. Just gink the wing.
I notice that a couple of you tyers aren't leaving much room for the thorax. There's no doubt they'll catch fish, but if the wing is set forward the fly will suspend like a shuttlecock pattern, if it floats at all. Spiderman's ties are they way I like them.
A good summer hare pelt has less underfur, so you get plenty of glossy guard hair in the dubbing. The dark hare fur is from the New Zealand hare, just the European Brown hare, but of which there are millions. I keep meaning to be at the head count at the annual Easter Bunny hunt at Alexandra on the South Island, but keep missing it. Lot of dubbing going to waste there each year.
Hope that helps. Tight lines.
Bob
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 26/06/2013 at 08:07
Welcome to the Forum Bob :z16
Great to have an opinion straight from the source :z14. I must admit having played with the small DHE's for a few weeks now , i've been finding fishing any smaller than a 16 is not ideal and a small klink or F-Fly works better. So i see where you are coming from. Still can't get happy with snowshoe though :z6 But the standard one tied with the Comparadun hair is doing the business so its not an issue. I've been using a wire rib too to help sink the body as i noticed if the body isn't hanging right in the water the fish ignore it until it does.
Cheers
Sandy
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Cameron on 26/06/2013 at 09:27
I notice that a couple of you tyers aren't leaving much room for the thorax. There's no doubt they'll catch fish, but if the wing is set forward the fly will suspend like a shuttlecock pattern, if it floats at all. Spiderman's ties are they way I like them.
hi Bob
nice to see you on the forum - enjoyed both your books very much.
great to read your input on the DHE. I've a few with a very minimal thorax (probably 'cos I screwed up the positioning of the wing and didn't leave space) and will cheat by wrapping thread turns around the wing to stand it up - makes it more of a post than a shuttlecock. Not perfect, but does the job.
I've also been tying them sort of the 2.0 way. 6-8 turns of thread, trim the tag end, dubbing down shank to bend, rib back up with tying thread, wing on top, trim the butts at 45' (ish!), dub in a bit of thorax and stop. 3-4 mins. Next!
cheers iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Mike Barrio on 26/06/2013 at 09:52
Welcome to the forum Bob :z16
Best wishes Mike
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Iain Goolager on 26/06/2013 at 10:12
Hi Bob,
Ok, Ok I'll sort out my thoraxes. Thoraxi? :X1
Iain
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Allan Liddle on 27/06/2013 at 00:46
Hi Bob How you doin, hope all's well your end and the trout are respondin. DHE is still my go to along with the Dirty Duster and I'm with you regarding size, rarely drop below s16. These are much more versatile flies than simple dead drift semi submerged dries, and I'll often use them dead drift or ( in the case of DD) as a spider in difficult lies. Wet them, roll cast and if floating a quick pull and swing just sub surface, amazing how many trout will nail this.
DHE as a nymph, often use a two dry cast ( this has been done to death and many here will be throwing hands up in horror) with a standard DHE on bob and worn or clipped wing on tail ( ginked stumps so it swims just sub surface) works almost due style with takes showing on the bob fly, although to be honest you'll see them take the 'nymph' most times anyway.
Feel like I'm telling Granny how to suck eggs so I'll stop here, big thanks for a whole heap of fishin input Bob, left an impression with this simple angler I can tell you.
Cheers
Allan
PS Sandy I've never had much of a problem getting the fly to 'kick' right, especially if I use saliva on the body before applying gink to the wing and back of thorax. Sparse dubbed body and the amount of thread below should be enough weight and ensure minimal air present to stop it sitting right, in fact the only time I do get problems is when I've fecked up the gink and got it on the body as well.
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Bob Wyatt on 28/06/2013 at 01:03
Sounds like you've got it sorted, Allan. The DHE should 'cock' upright with no weight needed. The usual cause for the fly not riding right is a wing that's too long. This will tend to make the fly go over on its side. The other is as Allan says, getting floatant on the abdomen.
Years ago it became apparent that some people were having trouble getting the proportions right, primarily position and length of the deer hair wing. Hans' DHE 2.0 tying sequence makes tying the fly a doddle. It's a more conventional straight forward sequence with no tag as rib, or covering the butt ends of the wing.
Allan, I've also been surprised at how often fish will nail the DHE as it starts its swing at the end of a drift. And not just small trout. I reckon it's that disturbance and wake, which is a pretty strong trigger. I've stopped thinking of it as a fluke and use it as a tactic, especially near dark on a couple of rivers where you have to cast really long and can't avoid drag anyway.
Sandy, I think you should give snowshoe hare foot fur another go. Make sure it really is snowshoe hare, because rabbit and Brown hare feet don't have the same hair structure that the snowshoe does. As you, like CDC it's the hair structure not the 'oil' or other property that makes it float. It beats the pants off CDC, IMO, and infinitely more durable. Keep the wing sparse because it doesn't take much to keep the fly at the surface and visible. Great for those emergers under size 16.
Just FYI, This past season I conducted a little one-fly longitudinal study. Except for a couple of times nymphing the lake edges, I fished a 16 SHE (white wing, black/claret seals fur body) for three months straight, no matter what the fish were eating, including the willow grub. The tiny (size 18-24) willow grub is a real ball-breaker down here, but I caught as many WG feeders as I usually do, and as many or more than anyone I fished with this season. Most people fish specific willow grub patterns from January to April, when the trout are supposedly locked in to these wee grubs. They drive anglers crazy.
Bob
Title: Re: DHE's
Post by: Sandy Nelson on 07/08/2013 at 21:36
Well i re-visted your Book, Bob and applied the same attitude i did when trying to make progress with the DHE.(ie following the instructions :roll)
So i kept it a bit more sparse and tied up a few in different sizes, today tried them out and i had a Snowshoe Hare Emerger on a size 16 doing the biz :z16
The size 14's still sink :z10 but perhaps thats to be expected :z8 the Size 16 was a little belter and i fished only it with lots of success today during the BWO hatches.