Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Fly Tying => Topic started by: Loxiafan on 23/04/2013 at 11:59
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I am in the process of reviewing all my hooks used for tying dries after my own experience last week with Varivas 2200BL's ( ok-ish) and Tiemco 212Y ( not ok ish) and hearing of lost monsters at the weekend through limp hooks brings on the fear. I think I have a workaround for drop arsed flies so my question is which conventional dry fly hook, barbless preferably or at least one that crimps well ? I have my preferred spider hooks as back up just now, but these need de-barbing.
I currently use TMC103's and Grip 11011BL's and so far have only had them open slightly at the point. However, my mind goes back to 2011 and a particulartly fiesty 3 pound Don Brownie landed on a Partridge SLD size 12 CDC and Elk on a balmy June night. I had to muscle this bugger through fast water on a 4wt Streamflex and hook held up just fine. Conversely I had a big Sea Trout/Grilse open one wide (and lost the fish).
I know everyone will have pros and cons but interesting to canvass opinion.
Are the new Partridge Patriot Fine Drys the same as old (or existing) SLD's ?
Do you guys think tip flex rods will be more prone to straightening hooks ?
I do not want to connect with another big fish and lose the scrap through failed terminal tackle, bad angling is okay as then I can blame myself :z4
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay,
The new fine wire SLD's are the same as last years SLD. There are new SLD's coming some time this year that will be heavier wire.
I very rarely straighten a hook Lindsay, even when I fished a Sage TCR 590 on the river I hardly ever had anything bend out on me.
Cheers
Ben
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Do you guys think tip flex rods will be more prone to straightening hooks ?
not at all Lindsay. allow me to turn this question around: why would they ?
as for BL hooks, as mentioned previously, i'm more than satisfied with any of the Maruto series.
cheers,
marc
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Cheers guys, thanks :z16
Okay, put it this way, 3 of us 'benders' yesterday (of the hook variety !) so it is either (or combination of):
1) Using hooks that bend easily.
2) Using tippet that is too strong ( I use 0.15 on size 14 DHE and above, 0.12 on some 16's and all 18's and below).
3) We apply too much pressure. I am pretty sure I don't and these hooks were wanging on sub 3 pound fish.
4) How and where the fish are hooked :z8
Marc, was thinking stiffer rod, strongish twang, the hook will be the thing that gives - they fair move about in the tying vice under tension :wink
Lindsay
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hoooks
lindsay - have you tried the FO hooks?
i had quite a few (not huge) fish on them yesterday, and they also pulled my flies clear of some substantial weed beds with no problem
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lindsay - have you tried the FO hooks?
i had quite a few (not huge) fish on them yesterday, and they also pulled my flies clear of some substantial weed beds with no problem
I have Iain, although the curved/wets seem good I am not sure about their dry fly model though, still quite bendy - tied some size 10 Jinglers on them and they were flapping like buggery in the vice !
I suppose what we are getting at here is a dry fly hook, light enough to remain in/on the surface but with a strong holding shape.....probably always gonna be a compromise.
Thinking about it more Marc, I have had this conversation with Mr.D, my TF Access and Helios rods have far better hook setting properties than my Streamflexes (for me), presumably because they are stiffer and faster when moving the rod to strike. Presumably this energy transfer would translate exponentially during the playing of a fish ?
L
L
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Dumb question but what's the benefit of a barbless hook over a debarbed barbed hook (think that makes sense).
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http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=5360.0
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hi Lindsay,
you're list is pretty good however there's more elements such as leader/tippet length (and it's resultant elasticity: shorter=less/longer=more), current, fish fitness and fleeing tactics, it's fright level and countless more.
anyhow, i'm still guessing it has to do with the hooks (btw, are they opening and staying open or just springing open and resuming their original shape ?)
but more importantly the angle of the rod as the fish is strikened ( :z8 :z4) and fought and landed.
i'll be more than happy to demo a course i teach on striking, fighting and landing at the Gathering w/e :),
marc
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Dumb question but what's the benefit of a barbless hook over a debarbed barbed hook (think that makes sense).
hook shape/profile, no 'bump' (that may or may not have been properly crushed) but mostly that barbs are of no use and then of course there's a big safety issue...
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cheers,
marc
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Lindsay,
Without seeing exactly what you are doing when you hook a fish it is very difficult to know why things are going tits up. I think Marc, has probably got it, most likely to do with rod angle during the fight. I can't be sure but the extra length of rod you are using could have an effect, same amount of force from at the grip is more force on the fish with a longer rod and as we discussed it will certainly make a difference with the strike. What were you using last season, both hooks and rods?
What tippet are you using with what fly size mate? Brand, type and either X number or diameter in inches. How soon after hooking the fish are you straightening? I would usually expect to get broken before I straighten a hook when fishing for trout and I'm fairly hard on a fish.
Orvis dry hooks are good and fairly strong even in very small sizes, I've never had an issue with them and I think they also do a barbless version, they certainly did.
Cheers
Ben
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What were you using last season, both hooks and rods?
What tippet are you using with what fly size mate? Brand, type and either X number or diameter in inches. How soon after hooking the fish are you straightening? I would usually expect to get broken before I straighten a hook when fishing for trout and I'm fairly hard on a fish.
Hi Ben and Marc,
Thanks for comments.
Last season no real probs with fish up to 3 lbs, mainly Streamflex 9' #4 and Access 9' #4 - had one Tiemco slightly open on the Access and dropped only one fish.
End of last season/this season Helios 104 has dropped a few (but now converted more !), opened a TMC212Y on a 2-3 pound fish. Streamflex Plus 9'6 #4 opened a Partridge Classic Spider and slightly opened a Varivas 2200BL (just enuff to lose a 'trophy').
Not a horror story by any stretch ! But I want to avoid such shennanigans.
Tippet, as said mainly 5x Orvis SS 0.15 or Stroft 0.14 when using 14's some 16's and I will go to 6 x SS or 0.12 Stroft for some 16's and all 18's, depends on dressing of the fly. Was using Al's Maxima Green 3 lb (really 386) on the Streamflex though... :oops
Hooks giving after a few seconds, after a couple of jumps and usually as they dive under. I don't use excessive force but stay in touch and keep some pressure on (lowering rod somewhat when they jump, of course).
My fellow Uri Gellers yesterday use 9 footers of various weights and actions :wink So rod size is not a defining issue in straightening/opening it would seem. But I can't speak for them, though tales of good fish lost recently through hook failure hurts even when it is someone else as it brings on 'the fear' ! :roll
Marc, I am beginning to think that the occasional-ish 'dropped' fish is as a result of these hooks opening (springing?) somewhat then re-setting hence the quest for a reliable strong hook.
Lindsay
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..and as you know a B100 with my same 'fighting' style didn't wang on a real fish, so I really do think the Varivas 2200's and TMC212Y's are in the doghouse ! Don't want to make the same mistake with 103BL's - have been great so far though.
Ones I have yet to try:
TMC900 BL
TMC100SPBL (might be too heavy ?)
L
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but more importantly the angle of the rod as the fish is strikened ( :z8 :z4) and fought and landed.
Certainly always vertical when landing (in to a short handled net !) and most often vertical or approx 50 to 60 degrees when striking, but sometimes much flatter - depends on circumstances eg. in relation to any slack line I have mended.
Has worked for last 30 odd years :z8
L
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My theory is leverage plays a big part in this hook opening business. If the hook is only holding by the tip it's going to apply much greater forces on that hook than one thats buried deeply to the bend. Also striking a fraction 2 soon especially on big fish is a good way of getting a poor hookup. I've been guilty of this recently I reckon.
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Sorted ! :z16
Thanks for all comments.
Lindsay
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hook shape/profile, no 'bump' (that may or may not have been properly crushed) but mostly that barbs are of no use and then of course there's a big safety issue...
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
cheers,
marc
Marc, fully aware of the safety implications, think that link should carry a warning for the squeamish :shock :shock. I was meaning more from a hook strength point of view, do people have the same issues with barbed hooks (that they have de-barbed) as with the barbless hooks.
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hi Andy,
no reason a crushed barb would weaken the hook unless the barb itself is a 'wedge' slivered from the hook wire (sorry, hard to explain but imagine whittling a piece of wood) i've seen quite a few Mustad hooks made this way. (and other companies too but Mustad seems to be notorious for this type of manufacturing)
that's already a structure weak point, applying pressure to it weakens it even more.
anyhow, it all depends on the hook.
as for the link, it was intended to shock. i'd much rather have some people squeem a bit and think about this and use common sense than having a hook(s) in their eye. :z16
cheers,
marc
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Anyone tried the TMC2499SPBL 's
The profile looks nice and sizes seem to be good, but they are expensive. Marketed as "Strong" and seem to be quite heavy wire.
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/19_25_04_13_10_07_13.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=626)
Look like a really great emerger style hook, not tried them myself, thought i'd ask before i get a few :z16
Sandy
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Sandy,
I have some at home, bought them easily 3-4 years ago and if I remember correctly they were for buzzers.
I never really took to them and I can't remember why.
I will photo them next to some other hooks for reference tonight.
With the amount of hooks available it is so annoying to purchase by description or silhouette only as they typically turn out to be not as expected.
Iain
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hey Sandy,
they are one the better hooks there is ! excellent on all points if the inherent wire thickness (weight) and other aspects match your needs. it's not really made for floating flies but that depends on the fly's design. they're also excellent as tube hooks.
don't hesitate :z16
cheers,
marc
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Might be worth looking at the Daiwa Gamakatsu G-Point Buzzer hooks. They come in Light and Heavy versions and I use the Light for CDC buzzers, DHE etc. The shank is maybe a wee bit short for "normal" dries, but they make lovely Klinks as well.
I have had Rainbows to 6-7lb on them and they have not bent at all, and I play my fish hard. Really really good hooks indeed.
The barbs crush easily as well.
If you want pure strength, then the HEavy is the answer. Its not a heavy hook, just a more substantial wire, but still very light in weight.
(http://www.lewistacklesupplies.co.uk/image/cache/data/Daiwa/Accessories/GAMAS-250x250.jpg)
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Are they not barbed Rob? ...... Crushed barbs are not the same as barbless when you get one stuck in you somewhere!
Cheers
Mike
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No reason a crushed barb would weaken the hook unless the barb itself is a 'wedge' slivered from the hook wire (sorry, hard to explain but imagine whittling a piece of wood) i've seen quite a few Mustad hooks made this way. (and other companies too but Mustad seems to be notorious for this type of manufacturing)
that's already a structure weak point, applying pressure to it weakens it even more.
anyhow, it all depends on the hook.
cheers,
marc
Agreed ..... that makes sense Marc :z16
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Are they not barbed Rob? ...... Crushed barbs are not the same as barbless when you get one stuck in you somewhere!
Cheers
Mike
They are barbed, yes, but when "crushed", crush well, with no bits sticking out as the barb is very small in the first place.
Trouble is, as we all know, the Barbless hook market is lacking. If folk are after strong hooks for dry flies, then we may have to look elsewhere.
My experience with current barbless models (Partridge, Tiemco, Hanak) has not been great. The Fulling Mill is MUCH better and a true barbless, but the Daiwa is by far the strongest fine wire hook I have found.
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What about Dohiku and Maruto?
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what about them ? :z4
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the Gamma G-Point's point as with a lot of other pre-barbed hooks is very (too) short to be a reliable 'barbless' hook.
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Most of these barbless dry hooks are aimed at and have been developed with competition anglers in mind rather than for holding onto trophy and specimen trout. Comp rules now stipulate barbless rather than debarbed flies, for catching as many small trout as possible I dare say all of the above mentioned hooks are absolutely fine.
If targetting lumps then use a decent hook of a gauge wire that you are happy with for the job and if you wish then crush the barb down. Problem solved, for me at least anyway!!
IMHO, debarbing is fine in terms of hook removal providing that the barb folds over and lies against the hook rather than snapping off. A snapped off barb is a pig to remove from tissue one folded flat against the hook comes easily, speaking from personal experience :z4
Shit, just read Robs post and I actually agree with him (I must be ill) :z7
Cheers
Ben
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the Gamma G-Point's point as with a lot of other pre-barbed hooks is very (too) short to be a reliable 'barbless' hook.
I don't follow, please elaborate.
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point= distance from tip of point to hook bend: where the fish is actually held during the fight.
hooks like the Gamma you showed or as ex. a partridge klinkhammer have very little holding space.
sure, one can successfully catch fish with those hooks but using a factory barbless hook with a longer point dramatically increases landed fish rate. follow ?
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(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/139_25_04_13_6_31_04.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=627)
Size 12's & Size 14's
SLD's
Tiemco 2499SP-BL's
B100's
Could tie a short spider on the 14 but I can't think of a fly (that I tie) that would either suit this hook or not have a better option.
Might be a decent tube fly hook (I think Marc suggested this).
This barbless malarkey has thrown up a variety of hook point types and I must confess that I like the long tapered & slightly upturned variety. Hooks like the Tiemco 900 BL seem a weird design (which you never know might be the optimum design) a standard point length with a mere angled /slanted cut for a finish?
Having said that the point of one of my favourite hooks - the Tiemco 102Y offers no fancy safety features when debarbed but has yet to let me down.
Ben I agree about correct hook selection when targeting large fish, the likes of those which have been reported both caught and lost so far this season, using 103BL's, 2200's and the like only serve to weigh things in the fishes favour.
Both of the above to me are good hooks, lovely engineered hooks, but are limited to a certain calibre of fish.
Iain