Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Rivers & Lochs => Topic started by: Loxiafan on 15/12/2011 at 22:03
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Hopefully of interest to Don Trout fishers,
About 6 months ago whilst reading “Caddisflies” by Gary Lafontaine I discovered a reference to a scientific paper about a study on Brown Trout conducted on the River Don (at Upper Parkhill !) way back before the Second World war:
“The Food and Feeding of The Brown Trout in relation to the Organic Environment” by R. M Neill, Trans. Royal Soc. Edinburgh, Vol LIX Part 2 (No.18), 1938.
It was un-available to download from the usual Web Scientific Communities but finally I tracked down a copy at Aberdeen University Special Collections and in Sept went along with the intention of photocopying it. The rather austere Librarian unfortunately wouldn’t let me photocopy it (copyright would you believe!!!!) but did let me view the journal. I was only able to make very rough notes and was limited by time – the paper is 0ver 40 pages! I filled in a photocopy requisition but sadly they wasted my time with that too as they have never got back to me !
Well, today I managed to get a full photocopy of this paper that is harder to track down than rocking horse doodoo – despite being the ‘standard text’ on the subject. I won’t say how I got it but let’s just say the Devil is a soul richer....
I have given a typed copy of my ‘rough’ handwritten notes to John Walker and he has raised this paper’s existence at the last ADAA Committee – needless to say they are very interested as the study area was the south bank above Gull (or Swan?) Island on the Upper Parkhill beat owned by ADAA.
The study was carried out in between April and July in 1931 and amongst other things it lists water quality, topography, invertebrates present and also the stomach contents of just over 70 trout (that were ‘sampled’ by fly fishing!). The main conclusions of the study were that during the study period (Apr to Jul) small Diptera, primarily Simulidae imagines (reed smuts) formed 70% of Brown Trout diet, and in July 30% of their diet was Caddis ( get yer Black Magics, black gnats, CDC Elks and Balloon Caddis oot !).
Will report more as I ‘digest’ it.
Lindsay
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Great stuff Lindsay ..... thanks for posting :z16
Looking forward to reading what you find in it.
Best wishes
Mike
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One thing that stands out is how some of the scientific names of invertebrates has changed since then, for example March Brown is Rithrogena haarupi not germanica - the British specimens then were thought to be a separate species but were later found to be taxonomically the same as those found on the continent.
There are a few others but that is the most interesting one.
Lindsay
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About 6 months ago whilst reading “Caddisflies” by Gary Lafontaine I discovered a reference to a scientific paper about a study on Brown Trout conducted on the River Don (at Upper Parkhill !) way back before the Second World war:
Funnily enough, i'm reading that book just now, rather excellent with loads of nice drawings :z16 Giving lots of ideas :wink
The study was carried out in between April and July in 1931 and amongst other things it lists water quality, topography, invertebrates present and also the stomach contents of just over 70 trout (that were ‘sampled’ by fly fishing!). The main conclusions of the study were that during the study period (Apr to Jul) small Diptera, primarily Simulidae imagines (reed smuts) formed 70% of Brown Trout diet, and in July 30% of their diet was Caddis
Perhaps it is time for an updated version, but i think i'll stick to turning rocks rather than inspecting stomach contents.
So i may not create a study of what the fish are eating, but we may find out what beasties are living in the river.
I'm hoping to do photo's too, so god knows how long it will take.
Do you think i should do one beat like the original study or would it be better to try and get a cross section of the river over several beats, i know how localised some of the bugs can be, so i may need to investigate many beats, What a drag :z7
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
Yes Lafontaine "is (or was) da man" :z14 Scuba diving in rivers to watch the behaviour and describe the GISS of emerging caddis pupae is hardcore in my book. I guess there is taking angling seriously and there is taking angling REALLY seriously ! I got a copy of his Dry fly book, signed by the author which is especially nice given he is no longer with us.
Regarding your surveying, ideally lower river, middle river and upper river in my opinion. Parkhill already done for ADAA calendar so that is a good starting point. However, much more useful is one site over a long period of time (5 to 10 years) preferably linked to environmental data. Contrary to other opinions I have read on here the climate IS changing and one of the best indicators of this is actually insects - I say this as someone who worked for 8 years as a Marine Scientist (larval fish and macrozooplankton) and as someone who is still actively involved in biodiversity monitoring. As the mean temperatures increase there will be winners and losers. Many southern Dragonfly species are now expanding their ranges northwards - for example we now have a breeding population of Azure Damselfly here in Donside and Common Darters are prolific in East of the region whereas 10 years ago they didn't exist in any numbers (East of the Cairngorms). On the downside our Azure Hawkers in Cairngorms, an arctic species, are becoming locally extinct and are being pushed to more extremes.
The basic conclusion of Neill's study was that the trout ate what was available in proportion to what was available and when.
Cheers'
Lindsay
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Lindsay...the man in the know :wink
Fancy giving me a hand? sounds like you might have a lot of useful advice, bearing in mind i am no more than an amateur who happens to have a healthy interest in both what the beasties look like and where they live, as well as a desire to take their picture :z7
I've always been obsessed with things that fly and swim and i've been turning rocks with great interest since i was old enough to pick things up, but i may prove to be not very scientific :z6 might be good to have someone to bounce things off :z16
What i have been trying to find is more info on what the bugs i find are likely to be, i have goddards waterside guide and that does give me a good start,but there seems to be a dearth of general UK entomology books aimed at average joe, unlike stateside where there are several good tomes to cover most of the invertebrates, sometimes even specific water courses.
I do like Lafontaine's book a lot, (i have not read the dryfly one) i also have the Swisher and richards "selective trout" book
which encourages you to go plodging and learn more. Any other suggestions i should perhaps be looking for?
Cheers
Sandy
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This sounds like a great project guys :z14
Cheers
Mike
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It does :z16
it should take a wee while too... keep me out of trouble for a bit :wink.
Pictures and drawings along with some info, aimed more towards the angler than the scientist, could turn out to be a quite a project. If anyone else fancies contributing as well, then just drop me a PM. I know a few of you find this stuff as interesting as I do. There are some good photos of flies already on the forum, so any additional input is always appreciated.
Plus observations as well.
Don't expect fast results though, i can see it being a couple of years in the making. Now to go find out where i can get a proper seine net from :z16
Sandy
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Lindsay...the man in the know :wink
Fancy giving me a hand? sounds like you might have a lot of useful advice, bearing in mind i am no more than an amateur who happens to have a healthy interest in both what the beasties look like and where they live, as well as a desire to take their picture :z7
I don't know about being the man in the know, I'd say you know way more ! :z7 My expertise is actually birds, primarily crossbills, and at that on an amatuer basis, though regarded as an authority by some... and perhaps not by others ! However, I do know about monitoring and how to set up a valid study so I am definitely happy to put some time in - I think it is excellent that particularly trout anglers take an interest in the biodiversity in their rivers and aren't obssesed with simply how many salmon they caught this year !
It seems to be something the guys down in England are big on - Stuart Crofts was trying to collate invertebrate data and guys like North Country Angler and Rob Smith sample their rivers as part of a big project. Perhaps we can set up a River Don Invertebrate Group and split the river in to several survey points ? One of these survey points should be the Upper parkhill beat ala Neill as we can compare that directly with data from 1931 and see how much, or not, has changed since then - that is a real opportunity. There should probably be a point below this too to take in to account any effect the Airport and Paper Mills/Industry has on the river.
Although having a scientific approach is more desirable ( as you can 'measure' and create 'numbers' that can be compared across years) qualitatitive data is also useful eg. roving records of what species are present and when. Kick sampling the river would produce 'samples' that can be ID'd and counted but it would also be useful to collect pH, water heights (from SEPA data), temperature (air and water) and nitrates and phosphates (though we would need a fancyish sensor for this). We can maybe get meteorogical data (rainfall, temp) from Aberdeen Airport if we speak nicely to them. Butterfly Net sampling of flying adult specimens would also be useful as some species may not be picked up in kick sampling.
Re the guides I recently got the booklets by Field Studies Council and they are pretty good for the taxonomy and can be taken easily in to the field. Ben D sells them at Orvis Banchory (where I got mine - if you are reading Ben please set me aside the one on Stoneflies as it's the only one I need and will be in later this week !).
This is all just off the top of my head, I'll have a bit more of a think about it. Anyone interested in participating should perhaps register their interest on this thread meantime and we can see how many survey points we can have ?
Cheers,
Lindsay
PS Stuart Crofts sells some kit for doing the sampling.
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Cheers Lindsay
I spoke to Stuart a few years ago and helped out with a study on March browns, he was doing.
I still have some kit form then. I wasn't much use to him as i got very little time on the river that year, but next year that should be very different.
Butterfly nets i have been looking at and have an insect holding pen coming from ebay apparently it was used to house a praying mantis that has now passed on. It looks like a great way to store flies caught while out on the river to take home to photo. :grin Kick nets is what i have been trying to work out, plenty dipping nets about but only a handful of things a sensible size. I remember Ollie Edwards doing this in a video and he was using net curtains, so i might just make my own one :z16
Doing kick samples is high on my to do list as any excuse to get into the river will not be passed up.
Daniel has expressed an interest in heading in the direction of marine biology, so i intend to get him out doing some of the work too. I'm happy doing the pictures and drawings and plodging about catching beasties, so i want him to try and do the chemistry bits, to make a record. Not sure whether i need that much info though :z8 As said previously i'm no scentist and don't want to be creating a sceintific report. What i had in mind was more a reference guide for the River and its inhabitants that anglers would find useful as well as interesting.
LOTS of pictures with info on where in the river certain beasties live and how to identify them, with maybe a size guide and a timing guide (both time of day and time of year), you know something that might help you work out what is hatching so you stand a better chance of matching it.
I've ordered the books from the FSC so that should help, thanks for the pointer, i'd forgotten about them, even though i looked at that site a while ago following a link from the WTT :roll Dopey!
Going to be interesting to see where it goes :z8
Sandy
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Daniel has expressed an interest in heading in the direction of marine biology, so i intend to get him out doing some of the work too. I'm happy doing the pictures and drawings and plodging about catching beasties, so i want him to try and do the chemistry bits, to make a record. Not sure whether i need that much info though :z8 As said previously i'm no scentist and don't want to be creating a sceintific report. What i had in mind was more a reference guide for the River and its inhabitants that anglers would find useful as well as interesting.
Hi Sandy,
Yes a general study showing 'what is where and when' would be welcome and I am sure go down very well with the anglers, and who knows in the process you might discover an interesting species along the way. I'd certainly be interested in being involved. However, if anyone else is interested in doing more routine surveys I really think this would be useful in monitoring the biodiversity of our river over time. For example, through invertebrate surveying it has been noted that in some of the Yorkshire rivers recently Caddis numbers have dropped markedly - if that continues it could have serious impact on wild trout stocks.
Taff Price's "The Anglers Sedge" has some useful tips on ID and also macro photography of Caddis.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Sandy
I suggest the first person you should speak to is is Jamie Urquhart, the River Don Trust biologist. It might save you duplicating work he has already done. Also anything you propose to do would be of value to his work. I am sure he could give you a lot of valuable advice.
I should have a bit more time available on the river this coming season so I am willing to help out where I can.
Irvine
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Sandy/Lindsay
Before going on to the river could you please phone Mr Jamie Urquhart River Don Trust Biologist on 07860846999 or 01330 830080. he can advise on the best time of year this practice should be carried out. At this time of year there are salmon and trout eggs under the gravel and it is illegal to disturb these spawning beds, which you would do kick sampling so please give Jamie a call.
Jim Kerr
River Superintendent
The Don District Salmon Fishery Board
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Hi Jim,
Good point as you never know who is reading posts & possibly misconstrue their actual intentions.
I think there is no issue in this instance due to the blokes being well conversant with Salmo & Timmy's spawning arrangements.
Iain
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Hi Jim
Nice to see you on here :z16
Thanks for that, i wasn't planning on starting anything until April anyway for those very reasons :z18
But as Iain says your comments are more than welcome.
I was going to speak to Jamie to see what sort of research he has done into the invertebrates, in the new year, because i realise as Irvine pointed out, he may well be a grand source of information and there is no point in covering similar ground, also i may be able to help him out with anything he may not have had a chance to do yet.
My other thing so far, is i'm not sure how easy identifying the likes of Caddis and Ephemera from the nymphs is going to be, so i reckon catching the adults after they hatch is going to be a better way of identifying the species that inhabit the river, then i can link to existing references to identify what the nymphs are going to look like and where they might live. Sounds like a cop out :oops but it seems far more practical to me, after all, a cased caddis looks much like another cased caddis yet there could be many species all grouped together and i don't want to be killing anything just to find out who lives in the house :z10
I think catching the adults after they hatch will also help me identify when they are going to hatch, so i can use the timing information in any guide, this is going to be more use to most people than lots of pictures of different cased caddis or stone clingers/agile darters. Keeping it simple and unobtrusive is very high in my priorities. Besides a folding butterfly net will fit in my tackle bag better than all the gear for kick netting (and i do still intend to catch some fish :wink)
I'm sure a couple of kick netting expeditions will be good just to get a feel for the gammarus and other bottom dewellers, but its not something i think i'll be doing a lot and certainley not until the summer time :z16
Its a plan that is evolving the more thinking about it i do, so i welcome all input and any other suggestions that people may have.
Cheers
Sandy
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Sandy/Lindsay
Before going on to the river could you please phone Mr Jamie Urquhart River Don Trust Biologist on 07860846999 or 01330 830080. he can advise on the best time of year this practice should be carried out. At this time of year there are salmon and trout eggs under the gravel and it is illegal to disturb these spawning beds, which you would do kick sampling so please give Jamie a call.
Hi Jim,
As Sandy says in order for it to relate to what trout eat and when (to benefit anglers) the survey would technically have to run 'in season' much as R.M Neill did at Parkhill in 1931. That said, I think year round surveys might be useful (as they do down south) but of course only after consulatation with the Don Fishery Board. Perhaps Jamie would be interested in coordinating such surveys - sounds like he would have a few helpers ?
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Dear all
I'm delighted that there is some interest in such a project on the Don, thanks to Irvine and Jim for pointing out that there may be overlaps with the Trusts work and implications for working in stream at this time of the year.
Firstly i'd like to give you a bit of background to the Trusts work in this topic to date.
The Trust has been collecting invert samples during its electro fishing surveys across the catchment at over 170 sites from the Don mouth to the headwaters inc tribs. We've been using standard kick sampling and stone turning/washing techniques with the aim to establishing a summary of the invertebrate community across the catchment at a basic family level and were possible moving into genus as well. These samples are currently with the University of Aberdeen as part of a collaborative project we are running with them and there they will be identified and the results disseminated to us in due course.
Asides from this we have also hosted a training event for Trust biologists during 2010 which was an introduction to the Anglers Monitoring Initiative (AMI). This event was accredited and enabled the attendees to undertake a standardised format of monitoring, it provided basic ID skills and established links with local regulatory bodies such as SEPA to ensure that the information you were collecting was acted upon appropriately i.e. assuming a pollution incident was recorded by the anglers in their invert monitoring this could be used to support mitigation procedures or in a prosecution.
We've also had a few independent studies looking for various species with very little luck across the catchment these have been mainly Universities trying to find a few mayfly sp on the edge of their range but either the weather or the locations have not been suitable and very little information has been turned up.
The Trust is currently looking into coordinating and sourcing funding for a pilot programme on this topic which would involve trained anglers/volunteers undertaking monthly monitoring at regular locations using standardised methods and equipment. The information collected will be used to inform fishery management, inform SEPA of water quality issues and will be disseminated and or updated to anglers/volunteers through either an electronic medium or by regular reports.
What I would suggest is that it would be useful to get a handle on the number of interested anglers/volunteers, as the project relies upon this input. I would also suggest that the Trust with its charitable status and background would be an ideal body to coordinate the project.
This programme is a standardise approach and nationally recognised, however it has not been rolled out across Scotland at this point for various reasons. There are a few programmes running in Scotland on the Tweed and in Ayrshire for example. I’ve been in touch with them and I’m awaiting some feedback on how the project has run.
If it is possible for those interested to let me know;
Firstly if they would be happy with this being a project coordinated or overseen by the Trust but in effect run by the anglers/volunteers then that would be great,
Secondly how many of you would be interested in participating.
From here, should it be the case I can then get the ball rolling on this topic, source funding, arrange to meet, arrange training and prepare a pilot programme for the 2012 year.
For more information the Riverfly website has details at this address
http://www.riverflies.org/index/riverfly_monit.html
Or please drop me an email at biologist@riverdon.org.uk
I’m not on the forum that often but I’ll try and keep up to date on this topic.
Best regards Jamie
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Hi Jamie ..... welcome back :z4 I'm sure we'll remember your other username sometime :X1
Best wishes
Mike
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Hi Jamie
I'll drop you an email to discuss things further, but i would be a very happy volunteer on such a project.
I would still like to pursue my own little sub-project creating a guide for anglers. For it to be a side-line to a proper look into the species in the river would be great :z16 sounds like a win/win situation to me :z18
I'd like to be useful as well as pandering to my own whims. :grin
Hopefully there a few others willing and perhaps we can link up with the Riverfly partnership as well, when i spoke to Stuart Crofts he reckoned that would be a good idea too.
I love the idea of getting some proper instruction too :z16 i can provide some half decent camera and illustrative skills to help with any presentations as well :z16
Getting more interesting all the time :z12
Sandy
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Hi Mike
Thanks for that, yes I'm sure it will pop up in a glaringly obvious email inbox folder in the next few days knowing my luck.
Also thanks for your interest Sandy, delighted to have interest at this stage and more than willing to accommodate your requirements or others within the outcomes of the potential project, perhaps something which all those with a vested interest could discuss in due course.
Best regards Jamie
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Jamie
I'll hold my hand up as a volunteer. I should have a bit more time available next season and a lot more the year after that.
Merry Christmas
Irvine
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Hi Irvine
Thanks for your note of interest in the project i'll be in touch, merry xmas.
Cheers Jamie
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Hi Irvine
Thanks for your note of interest in the project i'll be in touch, merry xmas.
Cheers Jamie
hi jamie
Aye, i'd be interested in helping out too. sure we can rope Matt O in too
cheers
iain
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Hi Iain
Thanks for the interest in the project Iain, i'll add you to the list as well.
Will be speaking to Matt the night so i'm sure that I can rope him in as well.
Cheers Jamie
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Hi Iain
Thanks for the interest in the project Iain, i'll add you to the list as well.
Will be speaking to Matt the night so i'm sure that I can rope him in as well.
Cheers Jamie
i'm having pints and then food with Matt O tonight too, so he's got no escape.
you in the Machar later?
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Hi Jamie,
Great to hear from you on the forum. I'd be willing to help out with 'official' surveys for the reason's I cited above. Will drop you an email with my full contact details.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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I think that the quality of the photography and reference material will be paramount in species identification.
bought 'A pictorial Guide to British Ephemeroptera' from Orvis yesterday as the ID key to the nymphal stages was the best I've seen, then set to work looking to road test it on old photo's.
her's an example;
(http://i43.tinypic.com/1sz96w.jpg)
Iain
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Brilliant :z14
If we can keep the pictures like that, then our wee guide could end up better than most of the "proper ones" :z16
Time and effort will be the keys :z16
I take it you want to play too, iain? :z18
Sandy
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Hi Sandy,
I think this project is long overdue and would like to contribute in any way I could, only thing is that I can't promise reliability due to family and work commitments that's the only reason that I haven't had responded.
Last season I carried a net along with the camera and attempted to record some of the local fly life - some really good stuff mixed with some total dross but very rewarding. I hope that this will be the case again this coming season coupled with a key to location, date, conditions, etc. And I'm more than happy to share this info.
As I said good photography is key because hind wing clarity was pivotal in the identification process, for me, for upswings.
Iain
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That's fantastic guys, awesome photo Iain :z16
Cheers
Mike
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As far as publications for ID'ing our insects are concerned, the very best (endorsed by Staurt Crofts at a talk in Ilkley this season) are produced by the Field Studies Council. I straight away bought the ones on Ephemeroptera,Stoneflies and Caddis flies-they are brilliant. I have been conversing very recently with Oliver Edwards on this matter and here is what he had to say "Richard, do you have the scientific 'Keys' for identification of the various insect Orders? If you haven't, you may want to consider getting them, at least the two dealing with the Ephemeroptera. ( A key to the nymphs of British Ephemeroptera: A key to the adults of British Ephemeroptera: From the Freshwater Biological Association).... or 'A Pictorial Guide to British Ephemeroptera' by Macadam & Bennett ( Field Studies Council) This is useful and quite detailed, but not as detailed as the Keys....but contains all we need for splitting..and more!!" So he endorses them too and Stuart held up a variety of books from the likes of Goddard,O'Reilly etc. and basically said that they were nowhere near as good or comprehensive as these publications and I agree.
The text and keys to the latter publication are by Craig Macadam(Riverfly Partnership) with photos by Dr Cyril Bennett. I think that this cost £15 and the Stonefly and Caddis were I think £5 each. The Ephemeroptera one is spiral bound and laminated, so is great for taking into the field, wheras the other two are sort of fold-out but still laminated
Richard
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I have all the FSC books, further to the conversations i've had with Stuart as well :z18
And as Richard says they are brill, although the caddis nymph and stonefly ones don't have enough photos in them.
The Ephemera and Sedge ones are a superb guide and will go in the bag with no issues.
I also have Ronalds "fly fishers entomology" which is a very old book, but what he does that most of the others don't (except goddard) is he also identifies the terrestrials and midges which the trout eat, anyone who misses those doesn't have a complete guide.
This is echo'd by the original 1931 Don study which identifies the midge and smuts etc, yet the current ADAA calender does not.
I know the trouts diet hasn't changed much in the last 10,000 years so i think the more opinions and input from all the guys on here then the better the information will be :z16
Sandy
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This is echo'd by the original 1931 Don study which identifies the midge and smuts etc, yet the current ADAA calender does not.
There is an interesting lliustrated caption in an article by Jeremy Lucas in this months FFandFT (Jan 2012) where he writes that he is noticing that small midge's, rather than upwings, are making up more of river trout's diet. The Don study from 1931 would suggest that this has always been the case, there at least, so it is an interesting comment by a notable and successful competition angler. It might also explain that, whilst upwing fly hatches have clearly declined over the last 50 years, and primarily the last decade according to some writers, the Don population of brown trout remains healthy.
Lindsay
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you may want to consider getting them, at least the two dealing with the Ephemeroptera. ( A key to the nymphs of British Ephemeroptera: A key to the adults of British Ephemeroptera: From the Freshwater Biological Association).... or 'A Pictorial Guide to British Ephemeroptera' by Macadam & Bennett ( Field Studies Council) This is useful and quite detailed, but not as detailed as the Keys....but contains all we need for splitting..and more!!"
Thanks for that info Richard - I discovered these books last week but wasn't sure if they were too 'specialzed'. Sounds like they would be worth it.
Lindsay