Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Hamish Young on 21/11/2011 at 09:38
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So, what do you consider as being the pinnacle of fly rod design in any material up to the end of the 20th century and why :? Difficult to qualify, I know, as everyone has different views/likes/dislikes.
But it struck me whilst on the phone to Ben last night there has to be a highlight in every generation, a rod that has redefined how rods are built or something that was exceptional etc.
For example:
20th Century - carbon fibre - Sage TCR 9' #5wt
No rights or wrongs here, just an opportunity to discuss.
H :z3
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Helios single handed rods. First and still the only rod to use the technology and redefined light in terms of fishing rods. Not sure I'd pin down lengths or line weights as it depends upon the task in hand.
Cheers
Ben
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I'm by no means on officianado - certainly when compared to you two :z14 - but I have to agree with Ben. I now have two Helios single handed rods (8'4" 3wt and 8'6" 5wt) and have not looked back. They are ridiculously light but powerful and accurate. I fish all day when I go out and these let me put in a 6-8hr day without getting tired at all.
Ben was trying to teach me to double haul this morning for a couple of hours and I used my X-Flite 10' 7 wt (for the first time this year) and my arm is still sore! It felt like a barge pole anyway! I can see it being relegated to Emergency use only and me completing my Helios set with a 10' 7wt. Mind you Ben speaks highly of the new Access rods - still light but a lot cheaper...
Ewan
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20th Century - carbon fibre - Sage TCR 9' #5wt
????????
When was it released??? Same goes for Helios ?????? I'm thinking 21st century :wink
So what are your criteria :X2 are we talking any period or do you wish to keep to the 20th century :z8
Sandy
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Mind you Ben speaks highly of the new Access rods - still light but a lot cheaper...
Yup very nice rods, Soundmixer is well chuffed with his
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When was it released??? Same goes for Helios ?????? I'm thinking 21st century :wink
Indeed they were - I should have picked another example than a TCR (I'm ever so slightly TCR fixated at the moment :z7).
So what are your criteria :X2 are we talking any period or do you wish to keep to the 20th century :z8
I do believe the answer is in the first line of my initial question:
So, what do you consider as being the pinnacle of fly rod design in any material up to the end of the 20th century and why :?
To qualify that, I mean a rod from any period, in any material up to the end of the 20th Century.
So, from the inception of the fly rod up until 11 years ago.
Clear :?
H :z3
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Yup very nice rods, Soundmixer is well chuffed with his
Sure am! :z4 :z16
I agree with Ben on the Helios but then along came the Access and the PRICE of an Access, compared to the Helios. Technology is moving on at a fair rate these days.
I used to have a Loomis GLX 9'6" #7. What a thing to throw line and at a weight that wasn't that much more than a Helios (good for it's time anyway). It was also an elbow f**ker and was the main reason I went to lighter line weights. My casting developed in a strange way too and I am only now just getting it back to where it should be. If you cast that Loomis long enough you tried to do the same with every rod, bamboo included and that didn't work. I can now throw my #4 Access almost as far,and I mean within a yard or two, and I'm still getting to grips with the Access.
So what is the pinnacle of fly rod design? My vote goes to the Access.
The Helios, I think, was the expensive prototype and is a fantastic rod, but the Access is 95% of a Helios at 50% of the price, so that tech is now available to more people.
I'm now looking at a 9' #9 for the salt and for practising the long distance stuff. It really is a cracker.
:z1
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To qualify that, I mean a rod from any period, in any material up to the end of the 20th Century.
So, from the inception of the fly rod up until 11 years ago.
Well it has to be whoever made the jump from glass fibre to carbon fibre, but I was not doing any fly fishing in that period, so I don't know who did it first. Certainly all the ghillies I knew at that time thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.
So, come on all you with long memories and tell us who did it first. :z16
Irvine
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Shakespear brought out their President in the 70's/80's, thats the first carbon fibre I remember,My best rod was a shakespear imperial 8ft 5 wt, until I lost it off the car roof, easgach1
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Why do you all like Orvis so much just out of curiousity ???
I have held an Orvis helios side by side to a sage Xp and the Xp made the Hellios feel like a curtain pole! Maybe its just my preference but i didnt get a semi when handling a Hellios, it might also be the fact that you are using them on rivers and iam using them on reservoirs ???
The loomis NRX is pretty special and cant see anything beating that at the moment but doubt i would pay the asking price! :X4
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Why do you all like Orvis so much just out of curiousity ???
I have held an Orvis helios side by side to a sage Xp and the Xp made the Hellios feel like a curtain pole! Maybe its just my preference but i didnt get a semi when handling a Hellios, it might also be the fact that you are using them on rivers and iam using them on reservoirs ???
The loomis NRX is pretty special and cant see anything beating that at the moment but doubt i would pay the asking price! :X4
Baz,
I don't just fish rivers mate, I fish for anything on all waters really. We are talking about design here rather than do you like X or Y rod. Helios was the first to use full thermoplastic resin throughout the blank, it was totally new technology in 2008 and afforded a weight reduction of >20%. At the time, nearly 4 years ago, it was groundbreaking and whether you like the tapers, action, or finish of the Helios range is not really an issue, the technology set a new bench mark. Helios upped the bar and I personally believe was, in part, responsible for explosion of so called nano tech rods (sand particles in standard epoxy). This is why I see them as special.
You like the XP? I'd sooner have an RPL.
Which Helios & which XP did you compare? The 107 or 108 compared to an XP age rod would leave it standing, about half the weight and the heavier the rod the bigger the difference gets. Reduce the mass in the blank and fittings (particularly in the upper 3rd) and you reduce the moment of inertia, this results in a more accurate rod with faster recovery, less fatigue when casting etc. You'd be welcome to borrow a Helios 108 for a few weeks if you'd like?
I'm not sure who was responsible but Grant would have to be there for his greenheart vibrator rods, whoever made the first split cane rods, then the first hollow build or impregnated rod, bamboo ferruled rod. Fibreglass, then first carbon, up to present day. Not sure what rods would be in this list but these are a few things that I would say were fairly important leaps. Even pinning things down to a brand is tough, I think I'd look at technology advances. I quite like some Orvis bamboos and I also like the shorter Scotties, many would say these were bad as they are impregnated who would rather some wobbly wangy noodle shit.
Cheers
Ben
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Very informative post Ben, thanks!
To be honest the whole tec spec bit is way over my head and i judge a rod based on how it feels casting, presenting flies either dry or nymphs and for its ability to bully fish!
The sand particle bit is for clever people so i will stay out of that, as for the XP i find it a good all rounder and from the hellios i tried i didnt get the same experience.
I cand remember the actual model of the hellios i tried but i would be willing to try out other models to see if they were all that!
As you work for Orvis dont you feel you have a slight bias towards them or do you really think they are just that bit specialer than others out there just now!
Have you tried the new NRX and what did you think of it?
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On the subject of bamboo and it's importance in the grand scheme of design things, three men stand out.
H. L Leonard, Everett Garrison and Hoagy Carmichael brought the design of grass rods from "some wobbly wangy noodle shit" towards more modern tapers.
Many of their rods are as good as modern carbon rods and are really light. And like the Helios they are whoo-rin' expensive! These gentlemen were the start of the taper design era that has led us to where we are now. Modern bamboo makers still use the tools that these chaps used. In fact the machinery from the Leonard shop, including the beveler, was purchased at auction by Marc Aroner who continues to make rods under his own name, and his rods are sublime.
Just a thought
:z1
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For me..the most advanced 20th century rod (Helios does not count chaps) is the Norboron from Normark.
Even the likes of Magnus bought one with his own money ;)
Fast taper, fuji SiCs right the way through, 24ct gold fittings, and most importantly, boron fibres to dapen any vibration and "wobble", something that very few manufacturers had sussed by that time.
It really was highly advanced compared to other rids on the market.
The 10 foot 7 weight revolutionised competition fishing, handling Di7 lines as easily as it did floaters.
As for the first Carbon rods, Hardy patented carbon content in 1971..I think it was a maximum of 35%, but they had produced carbon reinforced plastic tubes under the Fibretube banner in the late 60's.
I think the first "full carbon" rods, which were actually about 65% were made available to the public in 1977 by a company called Garbolino. As I say, I think that was the case. Hardy claim the first rod, a spinning rod, the year before, but as it was reinforced with carbon rather than made of more than 50% carbon, the general feeling is that it was not a "carbon" rod
...a real oversite in the patent process...ooops
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Hi Baz,
I do work for Orvis so anything I write is going to appear biased but I would be fishing with Helios rods regardless, all the models in the range may not suit my tastes but they are all good rods and I believe it is the material used (as well as the tapers) that makes them such good rods.
I use other stuff too, still throwing a TCR 5 for distance because it is better for the job than the Helios and recently looked at getting another Sage simply for casting with but then I cast the Access 912 and it was better and cheaper than the Sage I was looking at for the job it needed to do. Most of my single handed fishing rods however are Helios and I cannot see that changing any time soon. I'm fishing with MacKenzie salmon rods and I've just acquired a Daiwa Osprey Amorphous Long Distance Special for single handed Spey with long lines, for that job this is better than a Helios or any other modern rod as it bends to the butt. If I could find a similar blank made from Helios material, I'd be on that as it would be less than half the weight which would mean I could turn it faster and probably throw it further.
I have tried the NRX rods, I really liked the heavier saltwater rods, the 9' #10 & 11 were very nice and did feel quite "special". The lighter line rods felt O.K but nothing special, nothing different or astonishing about them and they were a bit soft & slow for my taste however that is a subjective thing. I have cast the Zenith 107 a few times and I preferred that to the NRX in same configuration, the Zenith is really quite sweet but I'd still take the Helios first every time. You'd want to have a good play with any of them with the lines you'd use on them before dropping the cash though.
Drop me a note if you're wanting a play with a Helios stocky bashing rod.
Euan,
Best grass rods I've used are Sharpes Scottie (I think 7' #4) Orvis 7' #4 a Gary Nicholson custom bamboo ferruled thing which was stunning and a Norwegian 7' #9 rod built for salmon & steelhead which was awesome. There seems to be a thing amongst bamboo nuts whereby it's cool to like really wangy shit, similar to whisky snobs that will only entertain the real bogging stuff that tastes like fermented compost, because whisky should be like that.
Anyway, enough of me hijacking H's thread!
Cheers
Ben
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Active debate/discussion is a good thing chaps - keep it going :cool:
I should get to know split-cane rods better, not all of my experiences have been happy ones :shock
However, keep it going folks - must be a few more views/ideas :?
H :z3
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For me..the most advanced 20th century rod (Helios does not count chaps) is the Norboron from Normark.
Fast taper, fuji SiCs right the way through, 24ct gold fittings, and most importantly, boron fibres to dapen any vibration and "wobble", something that very few manufacturers had sussed by that time.
If they'd lost the rather heavy gold stuff & blobs of weight right the way up the blank, they'd have had less of a wobble to get rid of :z4
Magnus bought one with his own money Wink
:z4 :z4
Ben
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Ben, fair enough...lol.
But I still think there is something in the use of SiC guides...more experiments coming up. I have two identical 9 weight blanks at home, one is getting Fuji Alconites, one with oversized snakes...would be interesting to see how you get on with then side by side.
You can be my "control"...
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Ben, fair enough...lol.
But I still think there is something in the use of SiC guides...more experiments coming up. I have two identical 9 weight blanks at home, one is getting Fuji Alconites, one with oversized snakes...would be interesting to see how you get on with then side by side.
You can be my "control"...
You mentioned some Fujis as light as snakes a while back, what were they? I may be looking at building a tournament rod some time soon.
Cheers
Ben
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The new Fuji Alconite "Concepts". Remember though, I was replacing very large, double leg snakes with very small, single leg Alconites....so on a light 5 weight, it would not be the same and the snakes plus extra epoxy would still be lighter, especially Recoils.
Forgot to say, the Titainiums are even lighter..but at £3-4 each they are not cheap by any means.
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The new Fuji Alconite "Concepts". Remember though, I was replacing very large, double leg snakes with very small, single leg Alconites....so on a light 5 weight, it would not be the same and the snakes plus extra epoxy would still be lighter, especially Recoils.
Forgot to say, the Titainiums are even lighter..but at £3-4 each they are not cheap by any means.
But they would be lighter than the standard small lined single leg guides on a Daiwa Osprey?
Cheers
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"There seems to be a thing amongst bamboo nuts whereby it's cool to like really wangy shit, similar to whisky snobs that will only entertain the real bogging stuff that tastes like fermented compost, because whisky should be like that."
Couldn't agree more!
I think this stems from misty eyed memories of halcyon days of silk lines and large trout caught only on a dry fly! What you have to remember is that at the turn of the century before last the same whiskey snobs were promoting steel cored or double built cane rods as a viagra style fix for the wangy rods that they were building.
No thought was put into tapers or the actual physics of what makes a rod work. George Edward MacKenzie Skues himself turned away from the crap we were turning out in this country in favour of Hiram Leonards lighter, crisper rods. This allowed him to refine his fishing techniques and revolutionise how we catch trout. Leonard passed on his skills to the likes of Ed Payne and Fred Thomas, both of whom have made such stunning work over the last century or so.
The tapers we have today all stem from Leonard. The floppy noodle shit all stem from builders without the skills to recreate the exacting measurements that are required to make a top class fly rod. I love my own bamboo rod to distraction, but it ain't a Garrison or a Payne.
John Gierach tells a lovely story about a little two weight that he really just can't cast until he tries downstream wet fly and it all comes together. Just like carbon rods, not every one is a winner.
"The lighter line rods felt O.K but nothing special, nothing different or astonishing about them and they were a bit soft & slow for my taste however that is a subjective thing."
That was what I found with my old Loomis. Great rod but at the end of a days fishing not the worlds greatest.
Horses for courses...
:z1
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Its an interesting topic, because it is entirely subjective :z16 This is a good thing for seeing what people regard as turning points in their own experiences.
Historically i suppose there has been several "Leaps" forward, the Brits were the first to laminate Cane but the preference was for greenheart so the technology went stateside and Sam Phillipe took it to the level of the 6 strip rod, now regarded as the norm.
Hiram Leonard as Euan Points out is a Key figure, He was the first to machine the strips making the rods more affordable and more easily adjusted, hence the proliferation of tapers to his credit. In turn his workshop apprentices became some of the most famous builders, like Ed Payne who was the first to really make the rods "Pretty"
Later, Young, Dickerson, Garrison, etc did different things with tapers and ferrules but never made any blinding leaps.
Post war, Fiberglass appeared in several companies, about the same time, this made for a cheaper medium and less intensive process, making rods more affordable and coupled with PVC lines the world of Flyfishing was becoming more accesible to ordinary people.
In the late 60's graphite started to appear, again the Brits started it , but the yanks moved it on to the levels we now expect. To my mind the turning point for Graphite would probably be the Sage Graphite 111 RPL rods and Loomis IMX in the mid 80's they created a new benchmark and have made the companies reputations they way they are now, everything since has been a development from there.
Other notable moments may be Sharpes doing Imprenated Cane to make it more durable and cheapen the process and perhaps Scott being the first to do a hollow ferrule on a graphite rod, hence making multi piece rods viable.
Normark using Boron for increased strength, and so on, i think most manufacturers have added something unique to the Mix that we now take for granted. :z16
Materials have been the biggest developments of the last 6o years as most rods are still built to roughly standard tapers as laid down by the laws of physics, its the way the materials are used and where they are placed in the layup that makes the differences.
I would expect the rate of change to start to slow, in fact i think it has been slowing since the 80's.
So onto my Key moments in History.
Casting my cousins Red Diawa 9ft6" 7wt in 1983, it was awesome compared to my milbro and could chuck size 8LS White Chenilles and Black tadpoles for what seemed like miles :z7 I still associate the song "Radio Gaga" with that red fly rod :X2
A natural progression through various 9'6 and 10ft 7/8 wts, A Bob Church Rutland stands out as a favourite for rainbows as does a Shakespeare Radial for the river. Later an 8ft president also brings back fond memories :z3 and my first foray to a lighter line it was a 4/5.
But my epiphany was in 1998 when i had sold all my tackle due to apprenticeships and Redundancies and found myself in Falkirk trying to survive with Sandra and Dan. I got a Sage 8'9" 3wt LL blank made with Graphite 111 (a cancelled order at sportfish) and saved up for the componants in stages, i spent many hours researching weight, balance, etc and when it was finally built it was the most amazing rod i had ever cast, not the fastest Sage ever made, but still my favourite. :z14
So i make it into the 20th century just :z18 with mid 80's Technology and an american company, a sign of the times i guess.
All my rods are American these Days even my Bamboo and i've just bought a Fibreglass rod to play with next season so perhaps i'm looking to see what else i may have missed out on by being born in the 70's :z7
Sandy
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No thought was put into tapers or the actual physics of what makes a rod work.
Not sure I can agree with that.
Richard Walker spent years working out tapers, actions, casting characteristics for both cane fly and carp rods in the 60's. His letters have been published and much of his research can be accessed from these letters. Not only did he work out tapers matmatically, he designd the plains for shaping the cane, the "moulds" for the tapers, lighter ferrules to speed up recovery and lighter rings. He really did uderstand cane. Thats why Hardy/Farlows jumped at the chance of using him as a consultant.
He later went on to design tapers for Hardy in glass and Carbon. He was an engineer by trade and really did understand materials and actions. His classic Hardy Farnbough Fly Rod was probably the best rod he designed..and I truely mean designed, not just waggled a few blanks about and chose one.
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Rob,
By the sixties people like Richard Walker were getting into the physics but I was referring back to the late 1800 through to 1920 or so. This was the time of Skues and his "unorthodox" methods.
You are right though, Walker is one of the pivotal figures in this time line. His work in glass was excellent and it was probably due to him that the transition from bamboo to carbon went the way it did.
:z1
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The Walker-effect on UK rod design is interesting, he definitely moved coarse rods out of the dark ages from the 50's onwards. Apparently, though, he persuaded Hardy to limit the amount of graphite in their blanks, and made this specific in their patents, thus robbing them of a serious competitive advantage! Doh!
Ref: Ben's comments about cane lovers liking "whangy shit". WC Stewart was very specific about trying to get the stiffest rod he could - he hated wobbly rods. To be fair he was in the era of ash/willow etc.
Me? I'd nominate Loomis IMX and Sage RPL as game-changers of their time.
21st Century: Helios definitely stole a march. At the moment I think there are loads of fantastic rods out there, from Shakespeare's Odyssey (how do they do that?) to Zenith/Proaxis, NRX, ZXL, Guideline's stuff, etc, etc. They're all brilliant but I don't think anything jumps out from the pack.
I think we're in an era of tiny incremental improvements at the top end. The biggest change I think we're seeing right now is a step-change in quality of mid/lower end rods.
W.
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Me? I'd nominate Loomis IMX and Sage RPL as game-changers of their time.
21st Century: Helios definitely stole a march. At the moment I think there are loads of fantastic rods out there, from Shakespeare's Odyssey (how do they do that?) to Zenith/Proaxis, NRX, ZXL, Guideline's stuff, etc, etc. They're all brilliant but I don't think anything jumps out from the pack.
W.
Yup, IMX for sure, also RPL. Sintrix / NRX and Helios are definitely game changers and could be put down as serious break throughs. Shakespeare rods are more than superb for the price, an interesting angling Will, I presume you are aware of the reasons behind the question :z4
Ben
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My observation is every time someone has come out with a new method of construction or introduced a new material into fly rods (up to the end of the 20th century) they've generally failed to fully capitalise on it's benefits and it's been left to the competition to make the best use of it. Orvis vs Sage is a good example with graphite. Although Fenwick (arguably) were the first to bring graphite technology into rod construction their rods were weak and prone to failure. So it was Orvis who introduced it into fly rods in 1974, but the range of rods Orvis produced were designed to reflect the best properties of their previous (and concurrent) split cane (sorry, bamboo) rods and did not take full advantage of the properties of graphite. Although others did try to make full use of this material (notably Lamiglas), it was some eight years later that Sage (or the Winslow Rod Co. as it was originally) that took the material to new heights with the Reserve Power range - or RP as we know them now.
So I agree, the RP range were a leap forward, but some years from when graphite first came on the scene.
Within a decade, everyone seemed to be using the material - with different levels of performance, however :z7
There was boron at the same time.... but that's another story.
It seems to me that the introduction of a new material has generally been very expensive by the time the finished product is in the hands of the 'ordinary' angler. But as the use of the technology becomes cheaper, a few years down the line, the 'ordinary' angler can afford the newer materials. Neatly, that suggests to me that some older technology has reached the very pinnacle of what is achievable with it before it's 'retired' or re-branded somehow in a 'classic' range.
Today, I'm not so sure that as many years would go by (as arguably it did at the time of graphite introduction) without the new technologies quickly finding their way into far better mid and lower priced gear. The market potential is so significant that no manufacturer of fly rods (other than those who insist on making grass noodle things :z7 :z4) can afford to ignore the potential in new material. That's good news for 'Joe Angler'.
For me, going back to the very beginning of this thread, the significant rods of a generation up to the end of the 20th century were:
1. Greenheart - has to be the Grant Vibration range.
2. Split cane/bamboo - tricky. Although others might disagree, I think the Palakona range are right up there.
3. Fibreglass - errrr....... undecided.
3. Graphite - Sage RP although arguably Lamiglas were the first to make it really 'work' as a material.
4. Boron - well, boron/graphite - Winston
Interesting stuff, will have to look into this a wee bit more I think.
H :z3
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H,
Can I presume all the contributors involved with this post will get a credit in the final draft of your thesis? :z7
"3. Fibreglass - errrr....... undecided."
Just remembered a name from the depths of my hard drive brain - Tom Morgan. Tom still makes fibreglass rods, some very good ones from what I read. Formerly the owner of RL Winston Ltd he did more with glass than anyone could be bothered to. Here's a link from Tom about his history
http://fiberglassflyrodders.yuku.com/topic/1320#.Ts6EjLJKN0M
John Gierach tells (another) lovely story in Fishing Bamboo about Tom meeting a carbon rod builder at a party.
So if you think glass is ass go and check out
http://www.troutrods.com/
Many did glass, none did it like Tom :z16
:z1
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"Many did glass, none did it like Tom"
Actually someone did, and it was this chap that the Gierach story was about.
JK Fisher - look him up under glass fly rod God.
These names are popping up in my heed tonight when I should be focused on work. This is way better than working :z7
:z1
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My 2ct. on this subject (how subjective it may be... :wink )..... Firstly: The discovery of flyfishing in the first place some 6 years ago... And boy did I have some catching up to do... Many rods further I think I discovered my Holy Grail(s) of rods... I tried Cane, Glass, Graphite and the Boron/Graphite combo...
Got a closet full with sticks but my go to rods are:
Splitcane: 7' 3# form Ids Schukken (Dutch Rod builder)
Glass: 7' 4# Hardy JET from 1973 (Think one off the best Glass-designed rods and affordable....)
Graphite: Winston IM6 (and for Double hand Meiser Highlander S S2H1307S-4)
Graph/Boron: Winston 8' 4# B2T
All in all I'm pretty addicted to it and Ooooh do I love it... :grin
(unfortunately Tom Morgen does not build rods anymore due to his illness (Parkinsons ??) as far as I know his wife learned the designing of tapers and rods from him and she builds them (or supervises the process)...)
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I've thought of a gap in the timeline.
For years fly rods came in a standard length / weight. For example 7' #4, 8.5' #5, 9' #6, 10' #7, 11' #8 and so on.
When did long and light start?
My only reference to long and light is Geoffrey Bucknall having his Brightwater rods made for him in one line weight (#3 I think) in 8', 9', 10' lengths. I had an 11' #5 Clan rod (wish I still had it :z19) but I hadn't come across anything lighter until more recently. I seem to remember that Bruce and Walker toyed with long and light but the angling press slated the rods and they disappeared pretty quick. Hexagraph went too but that's another story.... :z4
In my dealings with Greys (I got quite friendly when I had my bamboo made) they poo poo'd the idea of long and light saying no one would use them and they were a bitch to make. They now have an 11' #3 and a 10' #2 in their range!
So when did the technology catch up with anglers demands and give us long and light? To me that was one of the best things that tackle development gave birth to.
:z1
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I had an early B&W Border 11' for a 3-5 advertised as a 'wet fly' rod which as always equated to sloppy spaghetti like action. Thankfully at that time I mainly fished with small floats and natural bait, worms, stick bait, gadgers so it was actually quite good for that. But fly fishing :shock :shock :shock