Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Tackle Talk => Topic started by: Sandy Nelson on 13/11/2011 at 15:15
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Here's the rub.
Next year i fancy trying my hand at Salmon fly fishing......... again :X1
Now i have a good selection of reels to take lines from 7-9wt due to the saltwater fishing i've been doing.
so i'd rather keep the rod in this range of line sizes, to my mind an 8 sounds like a good size.
The rod is likely to be used on the Don and Ythan (probably mostly the Ythan cos no-one fly fishes it :z7), with perhaps the odd trip to the Dee,Spey, so i don't see much need for anything too heavy, i did figure on using my saltwater 9ft rods as single handed salmon rods, but i quite fancy learning to use a double hander properly. I will be getting a couple of lessons to brush up on the techniques but it will be trying to remain focussed that will be the problem. I think if i do it with flies that i like ie, Spey style and small hairwing doubles then i will perhaps stick it out a bit longer. Mind you i suppose most of the salmon fishing will be done early/late season when i'm not chasing gold :z7 so may need sinking lines ......... lots to think about:X1
What do most of you use on the Don? and does any-one fly fish the Ythan for salmon?
Being me, a double handed 12ft6" 6wt sounds like a real plan :X2 but perhaps the same length with an 8wt would be more suitable for bigger flees :z8
Help............................please :z16
Sandy
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Sandy
If you want to try my 13' #8/9 built on a CTS blank then you are welcome. That might narrow down your search a bit.
Cheers
Irvine
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Sandy
I have a Bruce & Walker 9-11 Expert 14ft if you want to chuck that around a bit.
Alex
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What do most of you use on the Don? and does any-one fly fish the Ythan for salmon?
Sandy
This has been my first year fishing for salmon/sea trout with the fly on the Ythan as I'm also new to it I just used my Single handed Shakespeare Odyssey 9'4" (2.85m) #7/8 with a WF7F.
Dave
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Being me, a double handed 12ft6" 6wt sounds like a real plan
(http://i41.tinypic.com/22kpjm.gif)
Hi Sandy,
No better way to get pissed off with salmon fishing than to go out under gunned. I've try a few 6wt 'Spey' rods, they've all been very pleasant to play with but utter garbage and a total waste of space in real world terms, nice toys but that is exactly what they are IMO. A niche rod for very particular fishing situations. You should go for something that casts a line heavy enough to deal with tubes & tips when required which really, is most of the time.
On the lower & Middle Don I use a 15' in the Spring or in big water or cold water at any time of year. In summer or during warm weather / low water I use a 13' on middle & lower river. Once above Alford I only ever use a 13' in cold or big conditions and a switch rod or single hander in summer.
If you are getting just one rod then don't go any lighter than an 8/9 weight. Length should be decided by thinking about where you are going to fish most often and how much of your fishing will involve wading deeper than your knees. Get a rod that will suit that situation and then, if necessary, get another rod for smaller or bigger waters. Advantages of a longer rod are mainly in deep wading situations, line control when playing a fish and line control on the water although this is less of an issue if fishing shooting heads. Disadvantages are that they are cumbersome to fish really close up and if fishing alone with high banks and deep water, it can be a real pain landing a fish on a long rod.
If you are set on a shorter lighter rod that comes in flat pack form the Irvines suggestion takes some beating. If you want to go buy one ready made then the MacKenzie DTX 13' shooting head rod takes some beating.
Getting the right lines for the job will make a big difference. I'd go for shooting heads, they make life easy.
I'll bring a 13'er over to Haddo tomorrow.
CHeers
Ben
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Although the Ythan is a narrow river, it has large stretches with weed extending well out from the bank and is too deep to wade (you would be walking through the lies anyway), so a long rod is a distinct advantage. The few times I have fished it in recent seasons, always late in the season, I have fished with 14 or 15ft rods. For an allrounder, I would opt for a 14ft 9/10, this will handle the heavier tubes/tips or sinking lines, while still being light enough for summer work with smaller flies on a floating line.
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Something between 13' and 15' would be my choice, and most suitable for 99% of the conditions you're likely to be fishing in. Ben and Graham make all the necessary observations, no point in my elaborating on what they've said already.
As you have a penchant for building, I'd look at the following:
http://www.davidnorwich.com/Salmondoublehandspeyrods.htm and most probably the 13'6" 9/10.
or
http://www.guidesnblanks.com/product/445/category/218 which would be in keeping with your Sage addiction :wink
Go straight to shooting heads, it's just sooooo much easier :cool:
H :z3
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What sage addiction :z8 they are all for SWFF
All my FW rods are Scott cept the boo :X5
So there :z7
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I may be slightly biased but I really enjoy my 13ft 8/9 CTX rod. A pleasure to fish and sometimes I can get it to put out a nice line. Welcome to have a shot if you promise not to critique the rod building.
cheers
matt
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What sage addiction :z8 they are all for SWFF
All my FW rods are Scott cept the boo :X5
So there :z7
Apologies, my hazy memory of forum posts recalls a thread of Sages being built, a blank being offered for sale, Sage in pictures and so on. I assumed you had developed (or were disposing of) a Sage addiction from that evidence but - quite clearly - I am mistaken.
How foolish of me :X1
H :wink
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PS - by the way that Sage salmon blank is a goody :cool:
H :z3
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Sandy,
That DTX 13' you were throwing today will cope with a 38g head which will carry all but the nastiest of tubes but you'll not get a blank. The CTS that Matt & Irvine built are sweet sticks and fairly close in action and stiffness, maybe a bit less stiff but has about the same action.
The ZA 9143 is very average for the price but will chuck heavier lines & gear, this is the "ladies" rod used to great defect in the brilliant "How to Spey Cast" by Mike Daunt :z4
Ben
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Sages being built, a blank being offered for sale, Sage in pictures and so on.
Nothing other than boredom and the readily available blanks :z4 And you may also recall they have always been sold,
although i may still have 5 or 6 :X1 they are all for SWFF honest :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Rather liked todays oversize stick, although it was easier to cast with with my left hand :z8 who knows........................??
I enjoyed the impromtu lesson as well, even if i couldn't hold the rod in quite as elegant and effeete a way. :lol
I did have much more fun finding a new line for my wee Boo though, funny how i always seem to gravitate back to the DT4 :X2
Methinks prospecting for gold will always give me more of a rush than searching for silver, unless its tinted with lavender :wink
But it could be a good way to keep warm in March, without being behind the vice. :z16
Sandy
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Gent's,
I can't offer the same insight as some of the previous posters but I do have one query/question/thought/ observation........
Is there any reason to go longer than 13' and heavier than 8/9? (using SH systems). I've fished but a fraction of the overall Don but have fished it where it was possibly as wide as it gets while still freshwater & have never felt handicapped by the outfit - by the terrain & my vorsprung teknik, yes.
C'mon Feb 11th :z15 :z8 :z19
Iain
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Cheers to everyone who has offered me the chance to try something, its much appreciated :z18.
as is all the advice, i still think the whole idea is quite off putting, but i will probably give it a go :z16
I've all winter to think about it and maybe i'll drop some of you a PM and see what we can do as regards getting the odd cast here and there. Our flexible friend gave me loads of good tips yesterday, it just needs practice and smoothing out.
Was a pleasure watching him so there is lots to learn and most likely a useful addition to the armoury :X1
Much fun yet to come :z3
Sandy
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.... this is the "ladies" rod used to great defect in the brilliant "How to Spey Cast" by Mike Daunt :z4
"Now I like to call this cast the fanny puller" at that point in the DVD I just about pissed myself laughing. For those who are not familiar with it, Mr Daunts unique style of teaching spey casting is demonstrated on his DVD and it's worth spending the £12.75 for a few eye watering moments. Have a look at http://shop.blenheimfilms.com/how-to-spey-cast---with-mike-daunt-2-p.asp or indeed go here
http://www.youtube.com/user/fosters?v=JKdLZ9P9RdQ&feature=pyv&ad=7968252041&kw=funny
and move forward to 2:47 and watch until 4:13, add a river and you get the same idea for free.
H :z3
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Is there any reason to go longer than 13' and heavier than 8/9? (using SH systems). I've fished but a fraction of the overall Don but have fished it where it was possibly as wide as it gets while still freshwater & have never felt handicapped by the outfit - by the terrain & my vorsprung teknik, yes.
My view is that really you need two rods in your armoury as a Salmon fisher - possibly more.......
For the Don, there is possibly no particular reason to go any longer or heavier than a 13' rod if you're happy with what you've got. However, a longer rod with a heavier rating should be much happier at chucking heavier gear than a 13' 8/9.
By heavier gear I mean chunky tubes on a fast sinking polyleader on a sinking/intermediate head. Now whilst I concede that you're not going to be doing that all the time it makes sense to me to use the right tool for the job - or at the very least a matched outfit suitable for the task at hand. It's not so much about distance, but the ability to easily and without fear of breakage control and move your 'heavy' gear around.
So going back to what I said about two rods......
If you're looking for an all rounder that will do most of what you need on a multitude of different rivers and in all conditions then a 15' makes sense. If you're mainly fishing smaller rivers then something in the 13'-14' also makes sense. But, if you consider a season round approach then in my opinion the bigger rod gives you coverage for spring and autumn/back-end fishing and the smaller rod the perfect thing for summer fishing.
When I fished the Don I usually had two rods in my armoury, a 14' #9wt and a 9'6" 6wt single hander and that covered me for most of the times of year and most of the places I chose to fish the river. However, I seldom fished in the early spring season. If I had, then a 15' rod would have been in my armoury.
Ultimately, there's no right or wrong here, just individual perception.
It's what you can afford and what you wish to fish with that are the overwhelming considerations - but it makes sense to me to have the right tool for the job.
H :z3
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H,
You feeling O.K? Most sensible conventional thing you've written for a while. Worried about you, there's nothing funky suggested there that won't workj :z7
Sandy, follow the above and you'll not go far wrong :wink
Ben
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Yeah :z14
I kinda get the feeling that if just want one rod, then a 15ft'r is probably the way.
especially as i'll only use it Feb,Mar and Oct and perhaps the odd trip to big stream, seems to make sense :z16
Do i need to go up to a 10 though? guess the flees will be rather heavy :shock
Still it would beat spinning :grin and anything that makes life easier........................... :z3
Could be interesting
Sandy
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Do i need to go up to a 10 though? guess the flees will be rather heavy :shock
Yes...... and errr....... no. Personally, I've pretty much given up on thinking about salmon rods as being a 9wt or a 10wt (whatever) as by and large I fish with shooting heads. If we stick with shooting heads then it's fair to say that the choice of heads on the market come in a bewildering selection of densities and the vast majority of anglers most probably purchase a shooting head line by matching it to the rating of their rod.
Makes sense doesn't it :?
Errrrr, well... that isn't necessarily the answer in my opinion.
If you consider the head weight rather than the rod rating (and many rods now feature a head weight rating rather than/in addition to a conventional line rating) then for a 10wt rod you might argue that a 40 gram head is ideal as that corresponds to a 10wt rating.
Then again, that might feel light to you on the rod so you opt for a 42 gram head instead. All of a sudden, your 10wt rod has become a 10.5wt rod, or to put it another way, is halfway to becoming an 11wt. But hang on, maybe 40 grams was too heavy.... and so on.
So in my view the truth is - when it comes to shooting heads - the line rating on the rod is largely subjective.
Salmon rods have come so far in the past few years that the right rod with the right line doesn't feel heavy at all and isn't a chore to fish with. A '10wt' of today feels utterly different to those I remember from 20 years ago, you do not have to consider that simply because a rod is rated as a '10wt' that it's a brutal and cumbersome thing.
Far from it, chances are it's the right tool for the job.
H :z3
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was wondering how an 11 foot, #7 or #8 Switch rod would fit into this discussion?
(bearing in mind Ben's earlier comment about being under-gunned)
I've a 9/10 line which feels clumsy and heavy at times in low water, due in part to my clumsy and heavy casting...
I can just about cover much of the water that I fish with by roll casting a single-handed 6wt - i've enjoyed this season playing about with single-hand rods & spey casts - and was contemplating a switch rod for low water to get the benefit of double handed casting and the added reach
cheers
iain
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Funny that Iain as, oddly enough, I considered buying a switch rod this season past to cover some of the smaller rivers near me (Alness, Brora, Nairn etc.).
I came close to it but, in the end and despite the fact they're nice to play with, I opted not to buy a switch rod.
My reasoning came down to the fact that for most of the places I would be fishing a switch rod I can readily use a single hander with the right line (shooting head :wink) to achieve exactly the same task.
I use either a 9'6" #6wt or a 10' #7wt single hander and have never felt under gunned. Sure, there are benefits in a switch rod but I would probably chose to (actually, I will) add another double hander next season (to my ever expanding collection of rods :!) to achieve the tasks where I cannot use a single hander.
It's a personal choice, but although I like them I'm not sold enough on the switch rod 'concept' to buy one just for the sake of having one when I could be spending that money on a double hander instead.
My two cents.
H :z3
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was wondering how an 11 foot, #7 or #8 Switch rod would fit into this discussion?
(bearing in mind Ben's earlier comment about being under-gunned)
I've a 9/10 line which feels clumsy and heavy at times in low water, due in part to my clumsy and heavy casting...
I can just about cover much of the water that I fish with by roll casting a single-handed 6wt - i've enjoyed this season playing about with single-hand rods & spey casts - and was contemplating a switch rod for low water to get the benefit of double handed casting and the added reach
cheers
iain
Hi Iain,
I have gone away from using the single hander unless I am fishing at Strathdon or from Kildrummy up in a very low water. Although I can manage anywhere above alford (and some spots below) with a single hander it is far less work with my switch. Casting effort shared over two arms and if I ever do need to put on a tube or brutal tip it is much easier to do. If you are covering all of the water you are fishing with your single hander effectively then you don't need a switch rod. Mine does not get a huge amount of use but I'd not be without it in the armoury. For fishing rivers like the Alness or river of a similar nature, narrow but, in places rather deep and and quite fast then a switch is superb. If you want a shot of one give me a shout.
I'm with Hamish here, the switch concept is flawed (as it's been sold to us) beyond belief!
Cheers
Ben
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thanks Ben,
I might take you up on that offer of a wee play.
the switch rod idea was sparked by an old feature (by Ben D) in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying that I re-read - but thinking about it, what I think i'm looking for is a shorter, lighter-rated but double-handed rod for casting/control/reach - hadn't really planned on using it for overhead casting, which i guess is the way the switch rods are marketed. hmmmm. good. re think time
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thanks Ben,
I might take you up on that offer of a wee play.
the switch rod idea was sparked by an old feature (by Ben D) in Fly Fishing & Fly Tying that I re-read - but thinking about it, what I think i'm looking for is a shorter, lighter-rated but double-handed rod for casting/control/reach - hadn't really planned on using it for overhead casting, which i guess is the way the switch rods are marketed. hmmmm. good. re think time
I do view mine as short double / mini double handers and do not think of them at all for single handed use but many do
My thoughts on the "switch" concept are as follows....
The whole thing came from the states, they fish for different fish (in some cases) and they certainly fish different methods, long drifts with nymphs & indicators, dead drift dries for salmon at quite some range or dead drifting / rolling stuff along the bottom for pacific salmon. When there are no steelhead about you can switch to swinging streamers for trout on the same set up. You can supposedly fish them single or double handed either overhead or with Speys but, IMHO, the lines that make them work well two handed are far too heavy to cast single handed on an 11' rod for anything other than a short time. There is simply too much leverage on the arm / wrist to be comfortable once you hit 7wt and above
My experience is mainly with the Orvis range and more recently MacKenzie protos for 2012. These both have the upper grip contoured to be held in different positions, near the reel for single handed use and near the top for DH use. If for some reason I want to use them single handed I will line them as a single hander with a line about half to one size heavier (using the standard AFTMA scale for single handed rods), that way they work fine as long single handers and would be fine, if a little brutal for loch style boat fishing if required. For two handed use on the river I line them with a suitable line in salmon weights so a #7 rod would be used with a head between 25 & 30 grams.
The switch concept does work due to the build & fittings of the rods but the switch thing, to me, means i can do more or less anything with the rod but i I have to switch lines. It has little if anything to do with switching between species although I have thought about a light switch for trout streamer fishing. I simply do not buy the one line for one and two hand casting concept on any rod.
Some guys are using them to good effect in the salt with lines such as the 40+, going one to two sizes up from the rating of the rod and two hand overhead casting. Most non casting geeks or non haulers will manage to lob something like that further than they will be able to throw a single hander, also helps with keeping backcast above surf when wade fishing.
There are time I would not want to be without a switch rod, places where a 12 or 13' DH rod is too cumbersome but where I cannot cast the gear I need on a single hander.
Cheers
Ben
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However, a longer rod with a heavier rating should be much happier at chucking heavier gear than a 13' 8/9.
Define 'heavier gear' Hamish.
I guess you could go 3" Brass with a conehead but I've found that I've never needed to go heavier than 1 1/4" copper(slipstream) and this, as you're well aware, can be easily manipulated even with a very dense tip on a 550 Skagit with the 13' er.
I will concede that my two 13'ers (LPXE & Scierra HMVII) seem to be beefy enough to handle this set up but alas the Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.
Iain
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Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.
Iain
I wish I had your face one camera then mate :z4
Yeah, 550 Skagit will carry that gear in fact, most gear, but the shorter rod is not as effective if you want to "high stick" and hover the fly over particular lies. That is one of the main reasons I fish a Skagit, give great control of flies when fishing deep.
Cheers
Ben
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Define 'heavier gear' Hamish.
I did.... in the very next sentence :z7
I guess you could go 3" Brass with a conehead but I've found that I've never needed to go heavier than 1 1/4" copper(slipstream) and this, as you're well aware, can be easily manipulated even with a very dense tip on a 550 Skagit with the 13' er.
I often fish 2-3" tubes in spring and autumn, some are indeed brass.... oddly enough. Mind you, I don't think I'd be brave enough to have a cone head on the front of one of them :shock Agreed, that gear is very much the exception to the norm which would indeed be a 1/2-2" copper or aluminium tube. I do not deny that it's possible and practical in some cases to manipulate heavy gear on a 13' rod - doubtless a skagit would help - but personally I would rather use, and would recommend, something beefier than a 13' rod for someone just coming into the sport and looking for an all-rounder.
Which is where we started on this thread.
I will concede that my two 13'ers (LPXE & Scierra HMVII) seem to be beefy enough to handle this set up but alas the Z-Spey needed a little break from it all.
I've not chucked a Scierra salmon rod at all (that I can recall) but I have used an LPXE 14ft which was most impressive.
In 25 years (on and off) of chucking salmon rods around I've broken (or had break on me, not sure that's the same :? :z4) three salmon rods. One was a muppet mistake which I will never make again, but the other two went because they were not the right tool for the job - I tried to fish too heavy gear on them. If it's an acceptable axiom that we learn from our mistakes and pass on that learning to others as perceived wisdom, then I stand by my suggestion that really a 13' rod isn't the best tool for the job of chucking heavy gear around.
H :z3
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Its been good this :z16
So who wants to swap a half decent 14 or 15ftr for a 9ft 4wt TCX :z8
Anyone got something interesting sitting around that might suit me and have a fancy for a trout rod for windy conditions, lightweight saltwater rod or just fancy practising chucking fluff a long way, maybe it would get more use than the 15ftr in the cupboard :wink.
If anyone has anything, PM me and we can discuss, the TCX is worth around 300-350 so sensible offers only please.
Cheers
Sandy
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Been raking Fleebay
Anyone know anything about Loomis Stingers? sound like they might be good for this underhand stuff with the shooting heads.
1 or 2 kicking around as well, just got to get the price down to the right bracket :z7
Any suggestions as to what else to "watch" given i'll be fishing Heads and practising with the lower hand :z7
Casting tubes with weight while surrounded by snow :z4
Sandy
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I guess you could go 3" Brass with a conehead but I've found that I've never needed to go heavier than 1 1/4" copper(slipstream) and this, as you're well aware, can be easily manipulated even with a very dense tip on a 550 Skagit with the 13' er.
Hmmm
I have a 13' rod but I don't have a Skagit head. Am I missing something? I can usually manage an 1 1/2" tube on the normal AFS head and rarely have the need to go bigger. :z8
Irvine
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I don't have a Skagit head. Am I missing something?
I guess you must be using Head and Shoulders then :z4
It sounds like some form of Skin disease to me :X1
Sandy
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Sandy,
Can't help with a 14'er but here's something to ponder............
I have a 13' 8/9 & 15' 10/11 LPXE, either (or both) of which you can have on long term loan. pm me if interested.
Iain
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Cool.
You have a PM :wink
Sandy
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Good evening guys just flicking through an edition of trout and salmon and notice the angling centre are doing a salmon outfit deal:
Wychwood Truefly double-handed salmon rod, Choose from three sizes: 13 ft (8/9wt), 14 ft (9/10wt) or 15 ft (10/11wt).
Scierra Sweep SLV 10/11 reel
Ron Thompson Energizer backing
Grey's GRXi floating spey-Profile fly-line
Airflo braided loops
Ron Thompson Energizer knotless tapered leaders
20 salmon flies
Stillwater fly-box.
All for under £100
Was wondering would this and some casting lessons be an decent starter outfit for fishing for Salmon in the Don thinking of fishing any beat as far up as Alford?
Also some advice on Rod length and rating would be great.
Cheers, :z18
Dan
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14'er would be fine, I've no experience with that rod but will as someone who has tomorrow and post back. The reel and rest as advertised will be fine, get a shooting head set up for it rather than learn on the Spey line, it will make things happen far faster for you.
Cheers
Ben
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Cheers Ben,
Look forward to hearing your thoughts on the rod.
Dan
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Hi there Sandy,
This is my first proper post, so here it is!
I was in the exact situation as you a few years ago, wondering about getting a double hander for salmon fishing, as i had been using my 9wt 9ft Zane on the top of the deveron, and had a lot of success with it, with all the larger trout, Grilse and salmon being picked up on size 12 stoats tails at the back end of the season.
Then one of the guys that i know let me have a play with his 13ft salmon rod and i was a convert from there. I have found that it is much easier to cover the water with a double hander, and have a guideline Le Cie 12ft 6in 8/9, this is a fantastic rod for lower water and will handle full sinking shooting heads with ease. I also got on sale a 14ft Loop opti from John Norris for half price and again this is a great rod.
I also think that after you have decided on a rod the line is very important to match to the rod, and i have given up with line ratings and just take note now of the head weight. I find that a lot of the guideline shooting heads are a great buy and work very well ( i much prefer shooting heads to a spey line ), as you can cut them to the length and wieght that you want, with shorter heavier heads for bigger tubes etc. Also they are easy to change if you don't think you are fishing the correct depth. When i got the shooting heads i would just go out try them and see if it loaded the rod correctly, if it was to heavy it would cut it back, there is a very useful powertaper calculator on the guideline site. Also Glasgow angling center are selling off the ready to go distance heads for £25 reduced from £54. The DTX shooting heads also are great, tried one of them and it left the rod like a rocket!
Also if you are looking for a good cheap rod, ebay is a great place to buy as there are 2 15ft Bruce and walker powerlites on there at the moment, looking like they will go cheap. I have also bought from the states before, and you can get some great deals from there, but need to add on the VAT also.
Also I have a guideline LPxe 11ft 8/9 that i got 2 years ago also, and i have to say that it is a very useful rod, and i just use my WF 9WT lines and it handles this with overhead and roll casts with ease, this was bought as birthday present and i was wondering how useful it would be but if you want a big single hand rod for high water, or to roll cast with they are very good. Never tried a switch line, but i think they could be a bit of a gimmick so that you spend £70 on another line.
Good luck finding a set up you like, i find it is a lot of playing around to get it right to your casting style, but that is all part of the fun!
Cheers
Mark