Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Tackle Talk => Topic started by: Loxiafan on 25/09/2011 at 23:44
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Hi Everyone,
New to the Forum so please bear with me ! I know there is a really solid knowledge base on here so hear goes..
I recently bought some Orvis Superstrong Tippet in 5x and 6x at the Banchory shop having heard great things about it. I normally use Stroft but find this a bit "wispy", Wychwood Tippet and (occasionally) Maxima for spiders (clears throat !). However, I really liked the "feel" of the Orvis SS especially for dry flies and it boasts superior knot strength.
Last night using the 5x tippet I lost a decent trout at Parkhill ( approx. 2lbs) - the knot at the hook gave out. I use barbless hooks so at least no trailing line and hopefully the hook will come out. I assumed it was a 'bad' tucked half blood knot I tied, however I was surprised as I used a drop of "Knot Sense" to seal it. Tonight (Sun) using 6x the same thing happened. This tippet was made up using a Knot (at the hook) that Paul Procter uses (after some Web research last night). Not good (the line not the knot).
I ues a Streamflex 4wt rod so not over muscling these fish and have fished for over 30 years (with a 10 year "sabbatical" due to other committments.) I use tucked half blood knots to tie on hooks and have never EVER had this happen with tippet or mono material. Either saliva or Knot Sense to bind and tighten the knot. Have come home and tested on a few hooks and the knots are consistently giving at the hook, but then I suppose it is only 3.5 lbs BS so maybe I am expecting too much....but a 2 lb fish ?? Is 6x too light for Parkill ? Hooks were Varivas BL-2200.
Has anyone else experienced this with Orvis SS or have any tips ? I really want to like this stuff - it is a bit stiffer and has good turnover with the dries but at the moment my confidence in it is somewhat dented. Try again (with another knot) or bin ?
Thanks for any help,
Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay.
I have no experience with the orvis tippet but I have had similar problems in the past with various tippets. I have found certain knots don't seem to suit certain brands so what I suggest is trying different knots until you find one you have full confidence in. When you connect with a decent fish the last thing you want to be worrying about is your knots. I have been there!!!
Have a look online at the orvis knot. I have full confidence in it and use it on nylon, copoly and light flouro.
All these posts about don trout have inspired me to get the river gear back out. Haven't been on the don in weeks.
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Thanks An Chuileog,
You know what, last night I stumbled over the "Orvis Knot" (a sort of figure of 8 with a wrap around one of the formed loops for those that don't know) and....it seems to work ! Maybe too early to tell but I have put a fair bit of welly into the 6x Orvis (on a big hook !) and so far it is holding !
I am glad, in a way, it is not just me but seems crazy that you need certain knots for certain brands of tippet though I can in some ways see why as the materials are all a bit different. My first thought was it was my fault, maybe not wetted the knot enough (but can't see how). At least no trailing line on the fish and another endorsement to always fish barbless. A few others have reported this with Orvis SS after searching so not just me. That said there is a lot of slagging off Stroft for the same reasons (slipping at hook) but it has always worked for me ( it is just a bit limp for dries IMO).
You know in the old days as a kid you could do a half blood knot on Maxima Chamelon and pull the bu**ery out of it and it wouldn't slip even with no tucking ! Try that with Stroft...... to be fair Stroft actually specify the knots to use on the spool and I always tuck on this modern mono/tippet material.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Plus one on the Orvis knot :z16
I remember the issue of Fly Fisherman magazine that the knot won the competition and became the Orvis knot. I have used it for all my hook knots since that day (never liked blood knots and don't think I could tie one now).
That knot came out about TWENTY years ago now and I can say that I have NEVER been broken at the hook knot, dropper yes, but never the hook. I have used it on all nylon but since I went back to Drennan sub surface (I'd love to fish Riverge but I'm not that rich) I am happy fishing a 3lb tippet and not worried about breakages.
I use Orvis SS tapered leaders needle knotted to to my line and I just love it. Lovely turn over, good stretch, supple and long lasting, so the nylon is good.
Try the knot for a while and see how you get on. This of course gives you an excellent excuse to get out fishing in the name of research :z16 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
:z1
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Cheers for the feedback Soundmixer - will give the Orvis Knot a real chance then. Good news as I really like the 'feel' of the tippet and it does seem robust in texture so would be great if I could use it. Too many great pro anglers recommend it for it to be gash.
Yes, I don't go in for all this "bad batch" of nylon business - and any way anything I have ever bought with "Orvis" stamped on it has always been fit for purpose. But tucked half-blood knots certainly don't seem to work on it so maybe Orvis should recommend the "Orvis" knot !
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Try an untucked half blood. I find it stronger than a tucked half blood.
To my knowlege, the tuck is in there to help prevent slippage of the knot not to increase knot strength. My personal experience with any nylon is that, the more turns / tucks that are included in the knot the weaker it is. I reckon it is to do with the friction or stresses on the material as it is pulled tight with the tuck. I've caught & returned a good number of 4lb+ wild trout on 6X SS and Mirage, some of those have been on stiff powerful 5wt rods too.
Try an extra turn in the knot and leave out the tuck, works well for me with both Orvis Super Strong and with Orvis Mirage.
As for the bad batch thing, it can happen and several brands have suffered from it from time to time. If you let me know when you bought the tippet I'll check what is on the shelf when I get back to work later in the week.
Cheers
Ben
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I have had a similar experience with this tippet material.. I bought two spools of it at Pickering Store, made up some leaders using a double nail knot, which i really like, and when i pulled to test the knot , they snapped right at the knot.
I tried several times, and used a couple of different knots, but same results.
I took it back to the store i got it from, and the fishing chap there tried it using his style of knot, and it also snapped for him--several times.
Not experienced this with Orvis line before this, but it was definately weak. The store was excellent as usual and refunded it to me. The bloke there said he would prefer to refund it, rather than me take another spool and get the same results.
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I changed from mirage to super-strong for my dry fly fishing this year and have had no issues with it. I have had up to 4lb fish on both 5x an 6x and have been using tucked blood knots. Could be a bad batch as I have 100% confidence in it.
Could the knot-sense be reacting with it? I don't know anything about this product as I have never used it.
I hope you get to the bottom of it as there is nothing more annoying than the tippet breaking :cry
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Try an untucked half blood. I find it stronger than a tucked half blood.
As for the bad batch thing, it can happen and several brands have suffered from it from time to time. If you let me know when you bought the tippet I'll check what is on the shelf when I get back to work later in the week.
Cheers
Ben
Hi Ben,
Many thanks for the comments. I tried a untucked half blood (on the 6x) as you suggest and the line slipped first two times and held second time. Used saliva to lube it. Tried the knot again an hour later and it snapped ! The Orvis Knot seems to be holding better but is also snapping after leaving for a bit (maybe they are stretching too much with all the pulling during testing) drying out then snapping ? Stroft at .012 is holding no bother with tucked blood or Orvis Knot and really wellying it.
Both lines were bought at Banchory on 22/8/11. Maybe is a bad batch after all, but would still look at myself as common denominator ! ?
Cheers,
Lindsay
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I have had a similar experience with this tippet material.. I bought two spools of it at Pickering Store, made up some leaders using a double nail knot, which i really like, and when i pulled to test the knot , they snapped right at the knot.
I tried several times, and used a couple of different knots, but same results.
I took it back to the store i got it from, and the fishing chap there tried it using his style of knot, and it also snapped for him--several times.
Not experienced this with Orvis line before this, but it was definately weak. The store was excellent as usual and refunded it to me. The bloke there said he would prefer to refund it, rather than me take another spool and get the same results.
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the comments on the line. Mmm doesn't sound good. Will maybe take it in by for Ben to test then.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Could the knot-sense be reacting with it? I don't know anything about this product as I have never used it.
Hi John,
I don't think so as all the 'test' knots have been done with only saliva. I got the product wrong too I think it is called "Knot Perfect" (in a bottle like Gink and made by same people) - the label has long since come off. My tucked bloods are definitely not holding - suppose it could be my tying of them but then 30 years of doing it without this happening......
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Just buy some grand max and be done with it! Simple 3 turn water knot and 100% confidence!
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Try an untucked half blood. I find it stronger than a tucked half blood....
As for the bad batch thing, it can happen and several brands have suffered from it from time to time. If you let me know when you bought the tippet I'll check what is on the shelf when I get back to work later in the week.
Hi Ben and Everyone,
I have done more extensive tests today with 5x and 6x Orvis SS on Size 20 Partridge Klink Hook. 6x Orvis is breaking really easily every time with tucked and untucked Half Bloods, 5x is a bit better. Orvis Knot holds better but I still wouldn't have any confidence using this spool I have. I am afraid I can't use this 6x SS and certainly not with untucked half bloods - to lose a fish by playing it badly is one thing but for knots to give out is unforgiveable.
Even considering it may be me and my knot tying, Wychwood Finnese 4lb is holding up (with tucked half bloods) as is Stroft ABR (at .012 again with tucked HB's). Big Troot have used Riverge in the past (10 plus years ago), may check it out again but feeling a bit scunnered with it all - even have lost confidence in my knot tying ! Considering going back to Maxima as it has never let me down but diam to BS is not so hot.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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"Considering going back to Maxima..."
Ben,
Put those s&v McCoys away man :z4
Lindsay, don't do it!
Drennan SS, Riverge etc is all waaaaaay better than Maxina, Moxuma, Exzima. Man I can't even say the word! :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
:z1
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Lindsay, don't do it!
Drennan SS, Riverge etc is all waaaaaay better than Maxina, Moxuma, Exzima. Man I can't even say the word! :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
:z1
Hi Soundmixer,
Will persist with the Stroft ABR meantime as it hasn't let me down this season...but it is not great for turning over size 14 DHE dries ( possibly my pish casting) and is not great for Spider teams as it is too wispy and prone to tangles. I occasionally use Maxima for wet teams :oops .The Orvis SS was a dream for medium dries even at the 6x as it is (or feels ) a bit stiffer. May try the Fulling Mill, Drennan etc next season !
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Okay, more bu**ering about with the Orvis 6x and I reckon I have it sorted.....fingers crosssed ! :z8
Paul Procter "Knot" is holding well on Klink 20's, 18's and giving it real welly. The other knot (thanks to Pauls mate Richard on this Forum) that is working, and that is my new favourite knot, is the Davy Knot:
http://www.pechetruite.com/Noeuds/Davy-knot.htm
Seems to be possibly several variants of the Davy Knot (?) but the one in the link is the one I have used and is working well. Note that the Procter Knot and the Davy Knot are different - some confusion on other forums that they are synonomous; they are not.
Hope this helps anyone else who has had knots slipping/breakages with this or other tippet material. I have certainly learned a lot and have turned a negative in to a positive. Moral of the story: try other knots with new tippet brands. There is life beyond half blood knots (though I do prefer these).
Will hopefully get out the morn for a couple of hours wi the Orvis tippet before season ends - hope there are some fish rising !
Cheers,
Lindsay
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Pleased you got something that works for you!
Offer to change it still stands if you get any further issues with it.
Cheers
Ben
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Tippet is very strange stuff ....... I've stocked lots of different brands and types at the fishery over the years and have never found one that everybody liked :roll
Cheers
Mike
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Liking the look of the Davy Knot. Might have to give that a try :z16
:z1
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Spent a day with Davy Wotton a while back on the White River in Arkansas. I wanted to learn traditional wet fly fishing and Davy is considered the best around over here :z14 . Davy showed me how to construct a leader using the Davy knot with 3 droppers. I know use the knot to construct all my leaders and have never had a problem !!
BTW Davy is a super guy and invited the wife and I over to his home that evening and supplied me with a few basic capes for wet fly tying. :z16 :z16
Was scheduled to go out with Davy this summer but due to very high water I had to cancel. Very Disappointed, but will go again maybe next year.. :z8
:z18
MD
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Hi Guys,
Having 'researched' this issue further on the Intraweb and clocked how many people have had similar problems not just with Orvis SS, but Stroft (that I use a lot with no probs) as well as Frogs Hair Tippet, I have come to the conclusion that inconsistency or even flaws, albeit subtle, in individual knot tying may be to blame rather than faulty material. How these knots are tightened, wetted and drawn up seems to be critical and will maybe explain why Ben's untucked half bloods hold on SS whereas mine slip - the material is maybe not as 'forgiving' for me as other tippet materials that my half bloods hold on ( and my knots are not as consistent as Ben's !).
I should have said that I did test my knots before I fished (and had breaks) but I now know to REALLY test them and the knots, especially on new tippet material, at home in tests where I am trying to break the knot or line. This should identify what knots hold and what don't. Another knot that has held well on Orvis SS is the Grinner Knot. I guess my half-bloods may well be slightly inconsistent and that is something I maybe need to look at.
Hope you guys don't me sharing my thoughts out loud on this 'journey' I am on.
Cheers,
Lindsay
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maybe you could ask santa for this
http://www.fishingtieknots.com/
:z4 :z4 :wink