Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Ben Dixon on 11/01/2011 at 22:10
Title: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Ben Dixon on 11/01/2011 at 22:10
HFW is presenting a program on C4 =1 on fishing & fish quotas just not, not sure if it 'll be any good but bugger all else on the box tonight!!
Ben
( Edit = change the title to "Hugh's Fish Fight" )
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Rob Brownfield on 12/01/2011 at 08:39
Was very good and a real eye openner!!!
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Mike Barrio on 12/01/2011 at 10:48
"Fishing for one species often means catching another, and if people don’t want them or fishermen are not allowed to land them, the only option is to throw them overboard. The vast majority of these discarded fish will die" :z6
"Because discards are not monitored, it is difficult to know exactly how many fish are being thrown away. The EU estimates that in the North Sea, discards are between 40% and 60% of the total catch. Many of these fish are species that have fallen out of fashion: we can help to prevent their discard just by rediscovering our taste for them.
Others are prime cod, haddock, plaice and other popular food species that are “over-quota”. The quota system is intended to protect fish stocks by setting limits on how many fish of a certain species should be caught.
Fishermen are not allowed to land any over-quota fish; if they accidentally catch them – which they can’t help but do - there is no choice but to throw them overboard before they reach the docks" :z6
Check out Hugh's website here http://www.fishfight.net/ (http://www.fishfight.net/)
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Allan Liddle on 12/01/2011 at 20:18
Why don't they simply work a total weight caught system? This way the edible catch (target species) is sold as just now, with all other species, undersized etc sold as fish meal etc. This means no wastage, all fish caught returning a cash value, reduced pressure on stocks (as quotas would determine 'close season and strict weight limits, obviously other than 'Black Landings') and less pressure on the bait species whuch are currently used as fish meal, fertiliser etc.
Too easy i suppose.
Allan
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Gordon Zola on 12/01/2011 at 21:48
I think that is the system they use in the USA Allan it seems like a good idea to me gordon
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Jim Eddie on 13/01/2011 at 18:14
Anyone watch it last night ? I had to watch 43 poeple being murdered in Midsomer, the most dangerous village to live in the UK, its a wonder anyone is left alive there :wink
:z18
Jim
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Dave Mundie on 13/01/2011 at 18:16
I watched it I knew there was a lot of good fish thrown over but didn't think it was that much :! I know the rules ect but until they get them changed to a better/fairer way why cant they instead of throwing the over quota over the side as waste land them and give them to the starving instead of giving them money, I'm sure they'd rather have a fish than a couple of squid Quid.
Dave
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Jim Eddie on 13/01/2011 at 18:28
I watched it I knew there was a lot of good fish thrown over but didn't think it was that much :! I know the rules ect but until they get them changed to a better/fairer way why cant they instead of throwing the over quota over the side as waste land them and give them to the starving instead of giving them money, I'm sure they'd rather have a fish than a couple of squid Quid.
Dave
Dave
Thats was the 1st night it was about Tuna last night
:z18
Jim
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Dave Mundie on 13/01/2011 at 18:40
Jim,
Yeh seen both last night as wife had recorded them, I guess there will be 2 guys looking for new jobs after saying they caught dolphins :!
Dave
Title: Re: Channel4 +1 Now
Post by: Derek Roxborough on 13/01/2011 at 20:37
being going on for years ,they should land every every thing and then tie up , the USA method has caused their fisherman to in crease mesh sizes so they can stay at sea longer with out the discardsm but HFWs heart is in the right place, He managed to baffle the Fisheries minister which probably wasnt too hard, I hope he makes some progress easgach !
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Rob Brownfield on 14/01/2011 at 08:57
As Hugh rightly says though, we the public have to help by starting to eat other fish besides Cod and Haddock.
Last nights programme really was very good. I knew Sandeels and Capalin were used to make fishmeal and then turned into Trout and Salmon feed, but I really did not know it took 3kg of these to grow 1kg of farmed Salmon!
As Sandeels, Capalin and all manner of other small oil fish are the staple diet of so many marine animals, birds and fish, its an absolute crime to feed farmed Salmon for the table on these.
Loved the bit where Hugh was scooping up "discard" in his net...unbelievable that Cod to 20lb+ are just heaved over the side :(
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Hamish Young on 14/01/2011 at 12:17
I have resisted watching as it's all far too familiar to me and will raise my blood pressure higher than it needs to be :z10
Interesting figure of 3kg to 1kg they've mentioned for salmon/trout feed conversion ratios.... personally, I think that's more than a wee bit optimistic. All fish farmers aspire for a return of 1:1 and a hell of a lot of work has been put in over the years to create the ultimate fish feed pellet. High in protein and oils it's an interesting science putting together the ultimate fish feed, but the environmental cost in producing the feed is utterly ridiculous for the gain. Then think about the knock on effects from all that high protein fish shit faeces lying under cages or in settlement ponds and the euthrophic effect it has. Poisonous algal blooms familair to anyone :?
Rainbow trout (remember they are a Char, not a trout) are far more efficient at converting pelleted feed to body mass compared to salmon. I don't believe the figures will have changed much since I had anything to do with fish farming and it may peak your curiosity if we look at salmon from first feed to the table the overall food conversion ratio is more likely going to be around 5:1, and that's probably an under-estimate :shock
The european common fisheries policy has to be one of the most utterly stupid pieces of legislation ever created by man - it defies belief. The quota system is a farce and the waste of perfectly good fish is beyond criminal.
Will anything be done :? Probably not, I'm very sorry to say.
H :mad
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Derek Roxborough on 14/01/2011 at 15:40
I worked in a hatchery during the 80'sand the conversion was then 4:1, but still using sea fish , at the time the Danes were using such fine mesh nets it was called silk stocking mesh, There was a big move to stop this as the ammount of Immature fish being killed was was out of proportion to the end product, the Danes also fed the meal to their pigs and powered power stations with these fish after drying,strangely the Danes have a massive shrimp fishery in the Denmark Strait where the salmon go to feed, accounting for the decline of the wild fish,a conversion rate of 1:1 is a goal that the producers would aspire to but will never attain,it was interesting to see that the Shetland site was using fish offal as part of the feed, easgach 1
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Jim Eddie on 14/01/2011 at 16:48
Living in Peterhead, I am quite close to the issue. There are numerous fish processing factories in the town , all of the off cuts / waste go's for fish meal.
Also at the fish market any unsold fish go's for fishmeal. Basically the boats landing their fish are at the mercy of the fish buyers, its all supply and demand, if the buyers needs are met whats left remains unsold.
Topically serevral locls fishermen and processors are up in court for landing "black fish" fish that should have been discarded.
:z18
Jim
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Mike Barrio on 14/01/2011 at 19:24
Had a good laugh tonight ...... they got one up on me! :z4
Went to my local chipper and ordered a Fish Supper ( for somebody else at home :wink ) Chipper person asked: Would you like anything else? I asked "what kind of fish is it?" Answer "Haddock" I asked "Have you got any other type of fish please?" Answer "No, just Haddock" I said "I was watching the "Fish Fight" programme on the telly last night and just wanted something else .... Do you have Mackerel in a bun?" Answer "No, just Haddock, or Fishcakes" I said "That's great, can I have a Fishcake Supper please, since you haven't got any Mackerel" Answer: "Ok, one Fish Supper and one Fishcake Supper, here is your ticket, it'll be 5 minutes."
This was fine, I was doing my bit, I was happy ........ But when I got home and opened the packs :roll they had given me two Fish Suppers! :z7 :z4 :z4 :z4
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Hamish Young on 14/01/2011 at 19:44
Like it :wink
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Mike Barrio on 14/01/2011 at 19:49
Over 22000 sign ups since 5pm :z16
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Tiam on 14/01/2011 at 20:37
I've been watching the series so far, its a disgrace that thousands of tonnes of fish are being wasted. Favourite quote:"Its a damn Disgrace ." Sums the whole quota system up quite nicely :wink
Tiam
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Offthebard on 14/01/2011 at 20:57
A sad reflection on the powers in Brussels - they cannot blame this one on greedy fishermen me thinks.
Good for HFW letting the fish out of the bag and going viral with it.
Sandy B.
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Mike Barrio on 14/01/2011 at 23:16
46,000 sign ups since about 5pm, if it reaches 370.000 before midnight that will be 50,000 this evening :z16
You know something ..... I reckon this could reach half a million soon ..... :z14
Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Alex Thain on 14/01/2011 at 23:28
hi guys, just returned from an eight day fishing trip in the north sea catching prawns discarding cod for witch i have no quota , crazy way to run a business :z8 :z8 :z8 :z8
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Ben Dixon on 14/01/2011 at 23:39
hi guys, just returned from an eight day fishing trip in the north sea catching prawns discarding cod for witch i have no quota , crazy way to run a business :z8 :z8 :z8 :z8
Hi Alex,
I knew all that discarding stuff went on but I did not realise quite how severe it is. Very good series of programs.
What would your solution be?
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Alex Thain on 15/01/2011 at 00:05
hi ben , im 55 years old and have been a skipper for 35 years, and have never seen cod so abundent its crazy what we are having to do , to keep viable. In this present climate the way ahead, in my opinion, is to give us days at sea (which we already have) but to catch what we land.
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Mike Barrio on 15/01/2011 at 00:18
As an outsider, who really has no idea of how the business is run, I would imagine from what we saw in the Trawler series that each trip must cost an absolute fortune in fuel and if you don't catch enough of what you are allowed to keep within your quota, or species of your quota at the time, you would be running the risk of making a loss on that trip? ..... and yet still be discarding valuable fish that could be eaten?
As that outsider and being the type of person that likes to think that simple is often best ...... would it be possible that a simple quota of weight of fish caught ( all species ) be set per year? So you land everything caught, no matter what species, or value of the species, until you reach your quota in weight and you discard nothing. Anybody seen discarding low value fish would be penalised? Any fish landed that were not of a popular table species could be sold for animal/fish farm type food?
Would this reduce your fuel costs, as you would reach your annual quota sooner by landing all fish and once you reach your quota, you would stay in port until next year? Would this also reduce the risk to your lives at sea? Would this mean less pressure to go out in foul weather?
Just my thoughts :oops Best wishes Mike
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Ben Dixon on 15/01/2011 at 00:22
Quote
hi ben , im 55 years old and have been a skipper for 35 years, and have never seen cod so abundent its crazy what we are having to do , to keep viable. In this present climate the way ahead, in my opinion, is to give us days at sea (which we already have) but to catch what we land. Sounds a lot more sensible than dumping things in fact it sounds so sensible that it is guaranteed to be a non starter!!
What is their (authorities) reasoning behind the quota system? Seem very obvious that fishermen are going to catch stuff accidently but the accidental catch is likely to be something that is required anyway. We're led to believe that there is virtually no cod left and that stocks are still very low, what data is this drawn from?
Cheers
Ben
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Jim Eddie on 16/01/2011 at 13:54
I have resisted watching as it's all far too familiar to me and will raise my blood pressure higher than it needs to be :z10
Interesting figure of 3kg to 1kg they've mentioned for salmon/trout feed conversion ratios.... personally, I think that's more than a wee bit optimistic. All fish farmers aspire for a return of 1:1 and a hell of a lot of work has been put in over the years to create the ultimate fish feed pellet. High in protein and oils it's an interesting science putting together the ultimate fish feed, but the environmental cost in producing the feed is utterly ridiculous for the gain. Then think about the knock on effects from all that high protein fish shit faeces lying under cages or in settlement ponds and the euthrophic effect it has. Poisonous algal blooms familair to anyone :?
Rainbow trout (remember they are a Char, not a trout) are far more efficient at converting pelleted feed to body mass compared to salmon. I don't believe the figures will have changed much since I had anything to do with fish farming and it may peak your curiosity if we look at salmon from first feed to the table the overall food conversion ratio is more likely going to be around 5:1, and that's probably an under-estimate :shock
The european common fisheries policy has to be one of the most utterly stupid pieces of legislation ever created by man - it defies belief. The quota system is a farce and the waste of perfectly good fish is beyond criminal.
Will anything be done :? Probably not, I'm very sorry to say.
H :mad
Hamish
I always thought Rainbows were related to Pcific Salmon nor Char ?
Cheers
Jim
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Hamish Young on 16/01/2011 at 16:37
Hi Jim, That's fair comment, the oncorhyncus family of Pacific species includes the rainbow trout. Whilst it is true to say that they have more biologically in common with char species salvelinus than salmo it would be misleading of me to say they were char alone. However, they are closer to the american char species than the largely 'european' salmo species and are biologically far more efficient/capable of rapid growth/food conversion as the char species can which makes them of great interest (obviously) to the fish farming interests. Part of that ability for rapid growth might lie in genetic coding as the oncorhyncus species generally have a shorter lifespan than salmo species although the same growth characteristics can be discovered in brown trout and atlantic salmon via selective breeding - sadly, it doesn't come as 'naturally'. The closest thing biologically that we have naturally in the UK to rainbows is the native char salvelinus alpinus rather than the brook trout salvelinus fontinalis which some people have confused them with. The native char is an interesting wee fish which is just as capable of packing on the weight as a rainbow but, unless artificially encouraged, seems to be something of a mystery as generally they do not grow to large sizes in the UK. A chap I knew tried crossing them but I don't know how much luck he had. Without going too much further off track the one species I would love to this day to get my hands on to 'play with' (as they interest me hugely) are the hucho, specifically Taimen although Huchen would be just fine. Although slow growing they could, in theory at least, make a very interesting study in fish growth. I would have been very interested to see if they could have been crossed with brown trout...it should be possible... one day maybe :wink I'll leave you with that thought whilst I go warm up the frankenstein fish bath :z4 Hamish exits stage right with a maniacs laugh and a stange twitch....... H :z3
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Derek Roxborough on 16/01/2011 at 20:18
Charles Marsham at Rispond has been growing Char for some time now finishing them in sea cages, Drummond- Sedgewick made the proposal to cross Salmon with char but dont know whether any one took it up, easgach 1
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Allan Liddle on 17/01/2011 at 00:35
For years our native charr record stood at around two pounds (?) then suddenly a four and a bit fish turned up from Loch Killen by Whitebridge (Invernesshire) From there we've had a number of 'rod benders' from a few localised waters all with the same thing in common with Killen, in-shore fish farm cages. The sudden access to a high protien diet certainly has had an impact.
As a lover of the wild troots i can't say i am all that happy to accept these new 'records' (i can still hear Hamish's feindish laugh in the background :grin) No denying that these are big fish, and i certainly wouldn't mind catching one (or several :wink) and no denying these fish are wild (borne and bred in a wild environment ) and no denying these fish are simply taking advantage of a food source that's presented to them, but (aye i know there's always a but with me :z4) it's the artificial nature as to why these fish have reached proportions i can't fully accept ( browns as well by the way)
On the broonie front, just to make things a little more complicated, difficult and confusing, many of these waters have natural rod bending broons in there already so if you catch a big fish from here how do you truly know it hasn't reached these proportions without the benefit from discarded pellets?
Answer is for the most part you don't (not without a scale reading), so it is fair to accept these beasts for the magnificent fish they are (unless you're deliberately targeting them below the cages that is)
One thing i'm not sure of is why don't our charr who reside in 'open' systems don't run for the sea?
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Hamish Young on 17/01/2011 at 09:14
Have to agree with you Allan, I can't say I'm at all happy about the knock-on effects of smolt production (in the main) on the habitat and behaviour of the 'natives', but char and brownies are opportunistic feeders and when the opportunity to feed easily presents itself....... well, say no more.
An interesting thing to consider where we have tampered with the habitat (in the form of intensive and semi-intensive fish farming on lochs) is the plausibility of bigger and bigger record 'ferox' trout appearing. Now I am a ferox geek, I'll put my hands up to that but here's how I see it:
If you think about it by the introduction of fish farming (so pelleted feed, escapees etc) we have effectively created a semi self-sustaining mesocosm (roughly a mesocosm is an artifical habitat that simulates real conditions but where environmental factors are controlled) which will encourage prey species - char - to artificially grow more quickly. Now I consider that it is reasonable to assume that some ferox will also grow more quickly and to bigger sizes as their prey species are artificially being augmented in size and quantity.
Now is that a good thing :? Probably not, in truth. Does it peak my ferox hunting instincts a smidgen :? Most certainly it does yes :wink
I'm also intrigued as to why we don't have anadromous char populations in the UK, I can only conclude that as the wild populations are limited to (relatively) few very deep lochs and lakes that we simply have a strain that has become land-locked; but the ability to be anadromous must simply be 'dormant'. However, similar evironmental conditions exsist in North America and they have wonderful sea-run populations so why don't we :? I dunno :z8 Perhaps it's simply not cold enough.
In the meantime it's good to see that Hugh's 'fight' appears to be doing well although I remain highly sceptical that it will change anything - anyone else recall Julian Pettifers' 'warnings from the wild' :? :z10
H :z3
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Mike Barrio on 17/01/2011 at 12:46
Getting closer to that 500,000 supporting sign-ups :z16
499,856 and counting .............
Cheers Mike
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Allan Liddle on 17/01/2011 at 19:17
520,839 now and counting :z16
With rules thrust upon us such as this makes you wonder if we will ever get the chance to vote on whether we want to remain part of, and be dictated to, by the EU. I'm in my 40's now and have never had the chance to vote on this.
Title: Re: Hugh's Fish Fight .......!
Post by: Jim Eddie on 17/01/2011 at 19:25
With rules thrust upon us such as this makes you wonder if we will ever get the chance to vote on whether we want to remain part of, and be dictated to, by the EU. I'm in my 40's now and have never had the chance to vote on this.
And you are never likely to get a chance to vote on it if you live another 40 years Allan :z4
Turkeys are never going to vote for Christmas , to many British MEP's living off the Brussels gravy train to allow us to vote on the issue.