Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Jim Eddie on 09/02/2009 at 18:47
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Just looking at an ad in this months FF & FT by a company called Bluemoonfishing (UK) Ltd , they say this (Q.Silver) is the future for fine fly rod grips.
Now I'm not a Luddite, but it has to be cork surely. There was documentary on SKY in the last couple of months about the Portugese cork forrests , they still give a living to many people in the area and are home to a diverse range of wildlife. All this could be lost if this product actually is the future.
It could never happen you say ? they probably said the same about Cane rods. Anyone seen this in the flesh or used it ?
:z18
Jim
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Gee Jim it seems like you study every word - touch of snow induced cabin fever?
I've a couple of prototype foam grips and a built fly rod with that type of grip, two different materials - very smooth, tough and light. Plus I reviewed a Greys Competition fitted with a composite grip recently - rather heavy and hard.
You just need to look at the quality of cork on middling and low-priced rods to have a clear idea what this is about. We're getting a lot of rods now with relatively low grade grips, filled and marked cork - so the grip deteriorates quite rapidly over a season or two or with hard use. Even some premium rods come with grips which leave me wondering why the cork we had 20 years ago was so much better.
For rod grips, Duplon is currently the only mass market alternative to cork and it's really horrible, black squashy foam. If someone can match the characteristics of cork, touch, firmness, and make perfectly smooth comfortable grips at the right price it could significantly improve the product we get now and/or could simply nudge the cork industry into doing something about the quality of their product.
Magnus
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Cabin fever indeed Magnus :z4
You can understand how those guys in the Yukon used to murder each other in the winter and why Scandinavia has such a high suicde rate :wink
:z18
Jim
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"O laith, laith, were our gude Scots lords
To weet their Q Silver-heel'd shoon!"
Doesn't have the same ring about it somehow. I'd rather stick with cork :grin
Irvine
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You just need to look at the quality of cork on middling and low-priced rods to have a clear idea what this is about. We're getting a lot of rods now with relatively low grade grips, filled and marked cork - so the grip deteriorates quite rapidly over a season or two or with hard use. Even some premium rods come with grips which leave me wondering why the cork we had 20 years ago was so much better.
If you watch all the documentaries about cork, the change to substitute cork for wine bottles is causing big problems for the cork industry.
So why is there no really good cork available for fishing rods, if they are struggling to sell it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:z8 perhaps someone , somewhere, is playing games Eithe that or the cork farmers have changed the way they do things and are harvesting it in ways not condusive to good shives.
Who Knows. The Q-Silver type stuff i have seen was like the expanding foam you get out of a can for filling holes in walls, shaped into the shape of a handle. Awful stuff :z6
Sandy
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There are a few mass produced alternatives to cork that are available, but none of it has made the cross over to fly fishing. Some of the high quality EVA handles used on the top carp and spinning rods are warm to the touch, offer superb grip, transfer a lot ot the rods "feel" to the hand and are exceptionally hard wearing..but they are black and look like rubber, so I doubt fly anglers would ever be receptive to it.
There are different qualities of Duplon handle, some soft and squishy as MAgnus says, but some quite hard and dense, with a feel very much like cork..but those are expensive. I got some from Japan and they worked out around £20 each :shock before postage..but they really were very nice indeed. They could be shaped just like cork and had that very slight compression that good cork has and not that much heavier.
As for the quality of cork, well, the demand for high quality wine corks had plumetted and so cork farmers have had to diversify to stay in business, and this means supplying the building trade with a lower grade of cork for tiles, floors etc. The rod trade has always got the surplus from the wine cork trade (hence sometimes supply was hard to find) but these days the handful of wine cork producers have very little spare. Gone are the days when every valley in France had a cork farmer for the local vineyards....as cassies dad found out. He owns a vineyard and has reluctantly gone over to cork composite corks..if that makes sense??
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Sandy - you saw a prototype, that's not the stuff they're advertising as Q-Silver.
The accounts I get about cork and rod grips and the cork industry comes very second, third or fourth hand so I'm deeply distrusting. What I can see is the quality of cork used on rods and that's been falling over the past few years. Flor grade is in very short supply and all that grading seems to mean is the best available from the harvest - given a poor harvest the grade falls?
The cork composite grip I tried was very interesting. The simple hardness of that grip was uncomfortable, felt like it bruised my delicate hands. But very solid and tough - damned near indestructible by the sort of abuse to which cork grips are normally subject.
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Sandy - you saw a prototype, that's not the stuff they're advertising as Q-Silver.
Looks very similar from the pictures, but i'll believe you :z7.
You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.
It is a bit like a cane coloured carbon rod, i suppose, but......................................
As for the quality of cork, well, the demand for high quality wine corks had plumetted and so cork farmers have had to diversify to stay in business, and this means supplying the building trade with a lower grade of cork for tiles, floors etc. The rod trade has always got the surplus from the wine cork trade (hence sometimes supply was hard to find) but these days the handful of wine cork producers have very little spare. Gone are the days when every valley in France had a cork farmer for the local vineyards....as cassies dad found out. He owns a vineyard and has reluctantly gone over to cork composite corks..if that makes sense??
I get it, No surplus quality wine corks, because they aren't really making them. That makes sense of the situation, but you would think there would enough demand for someone to specialize in high quality rod cork :z8
Sandy
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You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.
Thats been tried before...from memory both Shakespeare and Masterline produced fly and spinning rods with cork coloured handles. A huge flop!
You can also buy Korkolon which is exactly what it says on the tin...Duplon made to look like cork. Here you go..a link..arrrgh!!! http://www.mudhole.com/docs/newprod/cmoose.html Please tell me you wont be using it ;)
I get it, No surplus quality wine corks, because they aren't really making them. That makes sense of the situation, but you would think there would enough demand for someone to specialize in high quality rod cork :z8
I seem to recall someone trying this, I think it was a UK custom rod builder about 8 years ago...but the crop failed due to an extremely wet summer or something and he went bust :(
Another place good cork came from was the logging industry. When they where cutting Teak and Lignum they needed cork "trunks" to help keep the heavy hard woods afloat when transporting them down river. They bound them up into rafts and at the end of the journey the cork logs where discarded.
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This is the stuff I use to "top and tail" my handles http://www.mudhole.com/Shop-Our-Catalog/Cork-Rings_2/Rubberized-Cork-Ring-500-ID
(http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q265/backs4more/DSCF1935.jpg)
I strongly suspect its what Greys is using..or a derivative of it. As Magnus says, its hard, way too hard in my opinion for a complete handle.
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Another place good cork came from was the logging industry. When they where cutting Teak and Lignum they needed cork "trunks" to help keep the heavy hard woods afloat when transporting them down river. They bound them up into rafts and at the end of the journey the cork logs where discarded.
Rob
The story about cork being used to float teak does not make sense. ???
Cork comes from the bark of the cork oak. The timber, being oak, is quite heavy. Besides cork oak grows in southern Europe, especially Portugal. Teak and lignum are tropical timbers. I suspect they probably used balsa wood logs to float the heavy timbers and the story has got confused along the way.
By the way I found the advert. The product is called Q. suber not Q silver but the fancy writing makes it difficult to read. Q. suber is the short notation for Quercus suber which is the scientific name for cork oak. I wonder if they can copyright a name that is already in common usage?
OK I'll put my anorak away now. :grin
Irvine
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Sorry Irvine..I was getting confused..as always..it was Balsa wood that was used in logging..d'oh!! Appologies!
I used to make a lot of floats etc in days gone by and it became difficult to get good balsa..and that was why.
Got the two confused in my old age! :oops
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You would think that Duplon being synthetic, could be any colour you wanted, is this what they have done for the Q-silver I wonder. Made a cork coloured duplon handle.
It is a bit like a cane coloured carbon rod, i suppose, but......................................
Rob's covered that. Oh and yes the Greys Competition grip uses the type of cork composite Rob showed - http://www.mudhole.com/New-Products/Exotic-Burl-Cork-Blocks
Thing we seem to be missing guys - the cork industry has had years to sort out supply and clearly they won't.
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Interesting stuff :cool:
Hmmm, so might there be an opening for somebody to go to the growers and buy selected high quality cork and then supply it to the tackle industry? ..... a bit like Andy "Troutgrass" does with Tonkin cane :wink
This might work in rod building circles, but I'm not sure how you would sell it to the far east rod factories :z6
Yes, interesting :z3
Best wishes
Mike
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Thing we seem to be missing guys - the cork industry has had years to sort out supply and clearly they won't.
And why should they? Corks for rods were always a by product...the real money was in the billions and billons of wine bottle corks that they produced. See below as the length of time it takes to produce cork must have a major impact on it all.
Mike..
i think this answers your question..."A cork oak is first stripped at 25 years old, although the first harvest is not good enough to use. The trees can then be stripped every nine years." and "But they warn if the use of corks in wine bottles drops, the farmers will quickly remove the trees to make way for more profitable crops."
Quotes from a BBC news item on Portugals cork producers.
Its just not viable..you need thousands of acres that are rotated on a 9 year cycle...:(
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Cork is not history yet though :z3
I received my rod component stock order today and I'm more than happy with the cork :wink
Won't be long before you can try our two new fly rods :z16
Best wishes
Mike
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Mike..
i think this answers your question..."A cork oak is first stripped at 25 years old, although the first harvest is not good enough to use. The trees can then be stripped every nine years." and "But they warn if the use of corks in wine bottles drops, the farmers will quickly remove the trees to make way for more profitable crops."
Quotes from a BBC news item on Portugal's cork producers.
Yes, maybe, but, in a quote from a press release last year
"Santos Silva showed a slide that indicated cork production in Portugal is projected to grow by 4% in the next 10 years, due to increased planting that began about 20 years ago, and may grow 18% by 2050."
I suspect the wine stopper trade is growing more global with bigger companies contracting more of the quality crop and leaving less for the smaller players in the market. Or maybe not. Wine corks take up 15% of cork production and provide 50% of the revenue. It's a complex international market and it would need an insider to explain it all. Maybe somebody at Hopkins & Holloway would know. :z8
Irvine
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Rob
And why should they?
Absolutely - why should they?
Wine and rod-making compete for the same grades of cork made at the same stage - cut straight from the dried and processed bark - for sure wine accounts for a far larger percentage of cork production than rods and its volumes mean that it's far more profitable.
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Cork is not history yet though :z3
I received my rod component stock order today and I'm more than happy with the cork :wink
Won't be long before you can try our two new fly rods :z16
Best wishes
Mike
Mike, is this your new cork? :cool:
http://flyfishingmasters.se.server363-han.de-nserver.de/index.php?sid=4a5deccef4fe693b94c3eab881ef99a7&cl=details&anid=5e1498999c52409c3.37374599&ZeeBra-kork-handles&
I know one who will be suprised :z4
//Harri
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Mike, is this your new cork? :cool:
http://flyfishingmasters.se.server363-han.de-nserver.de/index.php?sid=4a5deccef4fe693b94c3eab881ef99a7&cl=details&anid=5e1498999c52409c3.37374599&ZeeBra-kork-handles&
I know one who will be suprised :z4
//Harri
No, not "zebra" cork Harri :wink
Best wishes
Mike
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I like that harri :z16
It would make an interesting contrast with one of this years planned rods, putting the stripes perpendicular to each other. Hmmmm.............. :wink
Sandy
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Yeah Sandy - but wouldn't you rather grow your own - just to keep with the ethos you understand.
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Yeah Sandy - but wouldn't you rather grow your own - just to keep with the ethos you understand.
:z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
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Yeah Sandy - but wouldn't you rather grow your own - just to keep with the ethos you understand.
:z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 Might give me enough time to get it right
Sandy
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Like I said at the start I'm not a Luddite , being a Librian I always like to strike a balance. I'm not against change, just change for the sake of change , the other view we can't be purists for the sake of it either, I always liked this quote from Gierach :wink
"The Purist." Speaking of the fly-fishing elite, he writes, "To do it right you'd have to live naked in a cave, hit your trout on the head with rocks, and eat them raw. But, so as not to violate another essential element of the fly-fishing tradition, the rocks would have to be quarried in England and cost $300 each."
:z18
Jim
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:z4 :z4 :z4
Hmmm - I've a couple of "purists"
1 - It was good enough...
Proud and insistent on the history of fly fishing - only uses flies, rods, reels, lines and clothing designed, and preferably manufactured, no later than the Great War (he can't bear calling it WW1 because it was GREAT unlike all the minor skirmishes which came later - has similar feelings about the GREAT depression).
Cane rod - but is considering a greenheart gem he's spotted on ebay.
Brass reel - whoops like a distressed helicopter when a fish runs - which is rare - doubles as a door-stop and hammer in emergency.
Silk line - Circa 1920, inherited from his father, who borrowed it from his father, who wants it back.
Flies - winged and hackled tied on hand made hooks - hard to replace, he's down to two.
Wears - tweed, stout tweed jacket and trousers matched with lighter tweed underwear - heavy, started to smell like a particularly strong goats cheese around 1960.
Leaders - difficult since gut and quality horsehair are in short supply. Currently using the last 2ft of gut he liberated from a tennis racquet.
2 - Camo-man
Fish are highly intelligent, eagle eyed and plotting against him. Everything he owns is camo and matt - rod, reel, line, clothing (including undergarments), bag, car, dog, hair, knife, children, ex-wife. That which is not itself camo lives under an ex army net.
3 - Rip-off-averse-man
Fish are his friends but the tackle trade is plotting against him. He owns nothing costing more than £25. His entire collection of fishing gear cost no more than £100. Gets very defensive when anyone suggests his rod should have more rings (would look better with a cork grip, doesn't actually need roller rings) - that his reel really needs a handle - that his line shouldn't have one flat side.
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Jedi/Magnus ....... very good :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z16
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Talking of purists, I guess it is important to know where innovations in fishing equipment originally came from.
For example, impregnated cane was developed for the aircraft industry, were they needed a way of preserving and strengthening the frames of biplanes during the "great" war (probably not so great for the meillions killed, wounded or left traumatised!)
The material used in the Orvis Helios was developed for the rotor blades in modern combat helicopters.
Not a lot of difference really, both materials came from a very similar source..so even a cane rod is not that "pure" when it comes to fishing. :z7
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Rob - no I don't think it's important to know where innovations in fishing tackle derived from - particularly when talking about purists. :wink
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This thread gets better :z4 :z4
Just wish I had a meaningful contribution other than suggesting we start to collect 'real' cork from bottles and have a go at making our own 'custom' handles when flor grade cork becomes unobtainable. I can see a new elitism forming though......
How would that work :?
Well, for a Sage one might use cork only found in bottles of Pouilly Fuse or Champagne.
For Bruce & Walker perhaps the cork from a robust and workmanlike Merlot would suffice :?
For a Daiwa the choice of cork might be from those bottles of Bulgarian Cabernet Sauvginon you've been saving for visits from folk you really don't like :z7
For a Penn..... well, rubber would do :z4
I sooooooo need to get out more :z18
Hamish :z3
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Funnily enough i was thinking along similar lines.
If i need 7" of cork for a grip, how many bottles of wine do i need to drink to get enough decent cork. :z7
Only problem i forsee is i believe that only the bottom ring on a champagne cork is wide enough to use, Not that keen on champagne. :cry
Though i did notice that most decent whiskeys have cork stoppers, now THEY , i could collect :z18, just have to put up with skinny handles :z6 seems to be the way these days with most manufacturers anyway:roll
Sandy
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Funnily enough i was thinking along similar lines.
If i need 7" of cork for a grip, how many bottles of wine do i need to drink to get enough decent cork. :z7
Only problem i forsee is i believe that only the bottom ring on a champagne cork is wide enough to use, Not that keen on champagne. :cry
Sandy
No no Sandy, use your new found skills. Just adapt your new milling machine. Cut each wine bottle cork into a V shape then build up into an octagonal disc. I calculate that if a wine bottle cork is 20mm in diameter you should be able to build up a 36mm diameter ring from eight corks.
For anyone with the patience to build cane rods, that should be a doddle. :z16
Let's see now, the average wine bottle cork is about 35mm long and you would need 5 corks long to get your 7 inches. 5 x 8 = 40 bottles of wine.
It would have to be good wine though. The cheap stuff has composite corks. Say £20 a bottle at least so your cork handle would cost you £800. Sounds like a good deal to me :grin
Irvine
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For a Penn..... well, rubber would do :z4
Dare I say that I can think of one manufacturer where a screw top would be more suitable ;) heeheehee :z4
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Sandy
There are natural alternatives which might be less fun but pose less threat to your liver.
(http://www.blue-ridge-rods.com/images/Inlayed%20grips/Birch%20Bark%20and%20cork%20inlayed%20grip.JPG)
That's birch bark, leather can be used to get the same effect something about stacked leather grips in this http://www.powerfibers.com/PowerFibers_Issue_33.pdf
These guys http://www.slatecreekflyrod.com/custom.php use specially turned wooden grips - look great but I'd want to spend some time casting one - fair number of US custom builders offer hardwood grips.
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I know Euan (soundmixer :z1 ..... remember him everyone :? ) was making knives with stacked leather handles and I recall him mentioning that what he was doing could easily be done to create handles for rods and had been done so before.
The knives he made did feel quite good in the hand, be interesting to try a rod 'in the hand' with a leather handle to see how it would work out :z17
Magnus - I've seen a lot of the US custom guys offering hardwood grips (ebay is a wonderful place :!) but I'm not convinced, surely it would be relatively heavy and if machined from a single piece of wood it would also be fairly inflexible and nullify any 'feel' :?
I am intrigued by the idea though.
Now all we need to do is find a forum where a few folk build their own rods to a high standard and find a rod builder to build two rods, one with a blocked leather handle and the other hardwood. If the rods were split cane it might be even more appropriate.
Now I wonder where we should look first :? :z7
Hamish :z3
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Hamish,
I think some of the yanks choose hardwood handles because they infact increase feel. Same principle as "exposed blank" reel seats on lure rods. Any vibration or knocks are transmitted along the blank and through the handle as opposed to the cork soaking up any vibration.
Whether its noticable or not I have no idea, but thats certainly whats been said on the rodbuilding forum.
Another alternative is bark. Have a look at the handles at the bottom of the page. Not my taste but potentially very nice. http://www.solwaycustomcomponents.com/Grip_Material.html
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Hmmm
Wood and leather are both porous and unless impregnated with something, or coated with varnish, will absorb water and expand and then contract again as they dry out. I expect a varnished handle would be slippery when wet. The Irish curraghs (traditional boats) were skinned with leather but it had to be treated with lanolin to keep it waterproof.
Bark is designed to prevent the living tree from losing moisture so it will not absorb much water and therefore should be more stable and should not need any coating with varnish. Birch bark sounds interesting. It;s pretty tough stuff. The North Americans were using it to cover their canoes for centuries. Cork is just a type of oak bark after all.
I wonder what other kind of bark might be suitable :z8
Irvine
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I think some US builders use hardwoods because they can. If they can turn cork they can turn wood, make spacers etc so they have the equipment skills and stock. And because there is a tradition over there of making hardwood rods - hickory and the like.
Holding a grip turned from a hard material maybe increases the vibration reaching the caster's hand. There is a theory that that increases 'feel' - on a fly rod? a carbon fly rod? I'm not convinced - imho it increases 'noise' and in the case of the very few hard grips I've tried, hurts. When talking about casting, "feel" is very poorly defined. Cane rod makers often talk about feel and the superior feel of cane. Given that cane is less hard than carbon - ie it absorbs more vibration than carbon fibre - it seems to me the 'feel' they value is not to do with getting as much vibration as possible through to my poor fragile hand :z4
I've seen but not used a rod with a birch grip - looked beautiful. In Scandinavia there's a very long tradition of building knife handles from birchbark - the Sami knives I've seen often have sections of antler and bone included in the birch-bark stack. The surfaces of the rod with the birch grip and the knives I've seen were oiled
Irvine
One of the reasons given to me for fitting a cork composite grip to the Platinum Competition rod was that rods are often put away wet and the damp cork then rots. That's certainly my experience, if rods are stuck into damp bags and sealed in tubes, grips break down and begin to swell and crumble. I occasionally see guys fishing with the plastic still on the grip of a rod - good way to get mould forming on the surface of the grip.
Hamish
Weight might be an issue - I suspect not. Almost certainly wood, leather or birch would be heavier than cork, but the added weight is under your hand, exactly where it has least effect on the Moment of Inertia of the rod. Use the same blank but cork vs wood grips and the balance of the rod would be slightly different - it'd be like changing reels - Abel vs Lamson? However, wood is stiffer than cork so it could fractionally change the way the rod bends - especially with deep-action rods I can feel the cork bend on long casts, I would not expect to feel that from a wood grip.
Really like to try one now :z4
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I've got a greenheart with a solid wood handle somewhere Magnus ..... but I guess you wouldn't be in a great hurry to try that :z4
Interesting thread this :wink
Cheers
Mike
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Feel...what is feel?
Well, I am a great advocat of cane (for carp) because of the "feel". The reason I believe the rod has more "feeling" is that it bends more on the cast. This bend seems to make the rod come alive and do what it is meant to. I use it because when casting a very light bait such as crust or a float it just makes the whole cast "feel" pleasent.
If I use the same bait/rig on a modern carbon rod of the same test curve it feels lifeless and wont cast as far. Too stiff and unforgiving..yet both rods have an identical (as near as you can get) action and test curve. Infact, my carbon stalking rod cost £395 so was not a cheap option, its on one of the best blanks ever made...whilst my cane carp rod is a Sharpes..middle of the range when it comes to cane carp rods.
Translated into a fly rod, and I have had a few cane rods in the past, its the same thing, a cane rod with a light line, say a 3 weight just lays the line beautifully with no effort, just unrolling the line from the tip. A carbon rod seems to need more line out (or overlining) to get it working, it does not have that lovely "let me do the work for you" kind of feeling...in my opinion that is.
Obviously thats over simplified and there are carbon rods that do have "feeling", but there are a lot that dont.
Its a very personnel thing I guess, but "feeling" from a rod is important..although difficult to explain :)
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Feel...what is feel?
Perhaps that should be Who not what :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Its interesting this :z16
Another material used for handles is Rattan, which is a cord bound over a wooden former and then treated with some kind of varnish. Looks might rough on the old hands to me, but was used many moons ago and some are trying to use it again :z6 Ah well it takes all sorts.
Rob. Or should i call you Noggin the Egg Nog :z4
I don't really agree about the "feel" being a bendy kind of kind of thing, although you never know :wink
However the rod doing the work for you is another matter, i reckon when they talk about cane this is what most are referring too, and it relates to how the rod will cast a line very smoothly with no obvious vibrations or hardness. That "feels" nice and given casting with cane is usually a laid back affair with time spent on a nice even casting rhythm then i can understand that description.
When they talk about "feel" from a carbon rod then this is also about how it feels in the hand during casting, Again this has much to do with Smoothness and the way a line can be cast without obvious vibrations. It seems though that much of the damping effect of the carbon is built into the Lightnes factor and fast recovery, I figure that due to the stiffness of the material, where Cane absorbs much of the induced vibrations, the carbon tube needs to dissipate them so the faster it does this the less noticeable they are. With less stiff carbons you probably get more vib's therefore less feel up to a point where the carbon starts to absorb more and starts to feel nice again.
Back to Cork, i quite like the burled barks, i might order a few up and have a play. Thanks for the link :z16
I'm with irvine as regards Leather, it looks ace but i would be very concerned about getting it wet and swelling and drying out and becoming hard, i just think of a chamois and washing my car :z10
Sandy
Now i've opened a can of worms :z4
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Noggin
Feel...what is feel?
I think some of the yanks choose hardwood handles because they infact increase feel. Same principle as "exposed blank" reel seats on lure rods. Any vibration or knocks are transmitted along the blank and through the handle as opposed to the cork soaking up any vibration.
Rob - just as a matter of fact - the material used to make the blank doesn't determine a rods flexibility, ie how deeply a rod bends, nor does it determine the bendform - both are down to the taper. Cane rod designs could mean slow tapers, but equally, many were fast tapers, characteristic of a lot of US made cane dry-fly rods. The difference is that it takes more cane, more weight of material, to equal the stiffness of a carbon rod - for powerful cane rods that means larger diameters and, because most are solid, significantly more mass.
IMHO when we talk about the feel of a fly-rod its about mass in motion, diameters and all sort of things come into play because of air friction - applies to both the rod and line. Casting a light bait using a rod which bends against its own mass makes some sense - using that as a basis for a fly rod? You need to get Sandy to convince you about that. :grin However none of this has word one to do with wooden handles and transmission of vibration - which is a crock in my opinion.
Sandy
Yeah and that's why you don't wear chamois shoes which is processed to make it absorb water. But shoe-leather? Leather which is processed and treated to make it water resistant - now let me think... :z6
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Sandy
Yeah and that's why you don't wear chamois shoes which is processed to make it absorb water. But shoe-leather? Leather which is processed and treated to make it water resistant - now let me think... :z6
Magnus
Precisely, leather will absorb water unless treated with shoe polish, wax, lanolin, whatever. But the treatment washes out and we have to clart our walking boots with nickwax or some other preparation every time we use them in the wet. Kitchen knives are not made with stacked leather handles because they are repeatedly washed and in time the leather would absorb water and swell then crack when it dries out.
Cork absorbs very little water, hence "float like a cork". It was used as floats on the herring drift nets and kept floating despite repeated prolonged immersion in water. The cells do not interconnect so the water can only penetrate very slowly. It would take about a year of constant immersion at a temperature of 20 C for it to become fully saturated. The cells in wood and leather do interconnect, otherwise the tree or the animal would die, so water can penetrate quite quickly.
But as you point out, if you leave it in damp, oxygenated surroundings then it will get attacked by fungus. Its the fungus that causes the degrade by breaking down the cell walls, not water absorption.
Irvine
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wooden handles and transmission of vibration - which is a crock in my opinion.
I would think Swelled butts in cane rods add to this, The swell in a cane rod is there to effectively kill the action in the rod before it gets to the grip. It has many other more subtle uses if done in certain ways, but essentially what they are doing is increasing the cross sectional area dramatically in order to stop the bend going down into the grip. To my mind this would be a similar effect to using a wooden handle, So i'm afraid i agree with magnus :z8 what can you do :roll
Sandy
Still don't like the idea of a leather grip, i guess my perversions lie elsewhere :z6
I did notice
Yeah and that's why you don't wear chamois shoes which is processed to make it absorb water. But shoe-leather? Leather which is processed and treated to make it water resistant - now let me think... :z6
You talked about shoes not washing cars :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
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Hi Irvine
As I see it you've described why cork was used on nets and has been replaced with plastics and foam. Fungus is one of the ways cork breaks down on rods - by no means the only factor - fatigue, poor fitting and mechanical damage all take their toll. Leather undoubtedly has negative qualities but since I treat cork with respect and grips tend to last so I'd have no problems treating a leather or birch grip with respect and... you get the idea.
Leather processing (the tanning used) doesn't always wash out - chrome tanned leather is extremely stable and the tan does not wash out. Alum and vegetable tans can wash out, then the leather goes hard when it dries and needs to be either re-lubricated with oils of soaps or by working the leather. Flexible leathers present a problem because the fibres are free to move over one another, that's why the leather can bend - hence water can get inside the matrix of fibres and cause problems. Lanolin, waxes, dubbing and polish are used to proof but they are also used because the leather can bend without cracking - not an issue in a stacked grip.
The leather in a stacked knife grip is hard and we want it that way, the fibres can't flex, in fact anyone making a leather grip works quite hard to make it impossible for them to bend. The slices of leather are compressed and glued together with a proofed edge. Typically glued together with a rubber solution glue - completely insoluble. Water has a very hard time indeed getting into a well made leather stack knife handle.
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Magnus,
Somewhere on rodbuilding.org there is a very interesting thread on hardwood handles. Some of those builders have made thousands of rods and i listen to them with sum awe as they really speak from experience. When they say they think a hard wood handle increases the feel of what is going on with the rod then who am i to argue. We are not talking about casting here, maybe i did not make that clear, we are talking about knocks and taps on the fly line that transmit along the line to the rod and thus the hand.
Now i do know that the exposed blank style lure/spinning rod handle most definately transmit more knocks to the hand. They do not use tape or arbors to fill the gap, but are bored to the exact size of the blank and are glued directly to it. Unfortuantly, the reason why i sold mine on was because i found the handle bloody uncomfortable :cry Shame, as the blank was a stunning Daimaru i made up..best lure rod (built on a tournament Bass blank) i have ever owned.
As for the action of the rod..i am familier with the concept of tapers! :z6..i was trying to illustrate what i think is a "feel" to a rod....
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Hi Rob
"Sum awe" :grin
Rob - take a PVC flyline and attach one end to a tree - pull the line tight, tight enough for a trout to come sailing over your head - and continue to pull and the line will continue to stretch. With a few exceptions modern flylines are all like that - very elastic - silk isn't and a few Airflo lines are not. If we want to feel that type of vibration, ie what's happening at the sharp end in detail, we need a mainline with no stretch and it needs to be pulled very tight - like a couple of tin cans linked with a length of string.
With a fly rod and line the only times when the whole system is pulled tight enough to transmit vibration that means much is when casting and when playing a fish - even then the line and rod are still well within their elastic limits - so they still absorb vibration. Carbon fibre is one of those materials which allows very little plastic deformation before catastrophic failure so we can rest assured unless a rod breaks while playing a fish we never reach its elastic limit. Cane can stretch, it allows some plastic defomation before failing - again that damps any vibration which might reach the rod and eventually the anglers hand.
So - if you want a system of fly-rod and fly-line that transmits as much vibration as possible you get the lightest stiffest rod you can find and a non-stretch fly line - you then pull them as tight as possible - once you've done that maybe then it might make sense to have a rigid grip. With a lure or bait rod - again the lightest and stiffest rod you can find and a non stretch line - GSP, Dyneema or some type of braid - again the grip is next to irrelevant if you use a nylon mainline (very elastic) and have a rod which is heavy or floppy (ie which damps vibration) - and then there's the issue of the system being pulled tight.
On the issue of feel - you seemed to me to be arguing that the material not the taper determined how the rod bent.
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Hi Rob
"Sum awe" :grin
It was late!!!
You seem to be missing my point entirely...which is...when a fish taps a fly or lure, there is a pull on the rod tip. If it is a stretchy line then yes, some of that "may"be lost due to stretch...BUT...a line will only stretch if there is a lot of weight on one end.
Lay a fly line out straight (one of mikes, not an Airflo floater, it will never lay straight ;)) and pull one end a foot. I will guarentee you the other end moves a foot. because it wont stretch as there is no weight on it.
Tie on a 6 oz lead and do the same. It will move about 11.5 inches.
Tie on a 5lb lead and it it wont move as all and stretch.
So taps and plucks at a fly or lure will register on the hand, as the line does not stretch much, or else we would never ever be able to use buzzers or nymphs as you are implying the line will stretch and we wont feel a thing. I am not talking about vibration as in a constant "buzz" through the hand..but when that tip is pulled an inch or so, it is transmitted up the blank to the hand. Some of that will be felt in the hand. Having said that...with Recoil rings there is most deffinately a "buzz" when double hauling!.
As for braid....been using that for just over 10 years although when fishing for soft mouthed fish such as Perch I use a very soft rod or nylon as braid pulls lures from a Perch's mouth if fished on a stiff rod.
And as for tapers...I clearly stated I was comparing like for like when it came to actions. "yet both rods have an identical (as near as you can get) action and test curve." Of course the action comes partly from taper, partly from material, partly from construction techniques.
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when a fish taps a fly or lure, there is a pull on the rod tip
Stalking or flyfishing, I would see this before I feel it, so its a moot point. :z7
Sandy
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The leather in a stacked knife grip is hard and we want it that way, the fibres can't flex, in fact anyone making a leather grip works quite hard to make it impossible for them to bend. The slices of leather are compressed and glued together with a proofed edge. Typically glued together with a rubber solution glue - completely insoluble. Water has a very hard time indeed getting into a well made leather stack knife handle.
Yes indeed, but the weak point is the proofed edge and the technique hardly utilises the natural properties of the material. For water repellance we are totally dependant on the coating we have applied. Also because of the compression you get more weight and less cushioning effect. You would get the same effect with less bother by making a stacked handle out of discs cut from a conveyor belt. One of my jobs as a student was welding up rollers made of steel pipe and stacked discs from lorry tyres so I'm an expert in this. :grin
Cork comes complete with natural properties that suit it to the job. It is light, comfortable, gives reasonable grip when wet and is naturally water repellant. All we have to do is shape it. No worries about the coating wearing off.
If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't) then it would make sense to start looking at materials that have the properties we want rather than modifying materials that don't.
Incidentally birch timber is light in colour but not light in weight. It's near as heavy as oak. Its disadvantage is it has little natural resistance to fungus so it would have to be well cared for and regularly oiled or varnished. Oak or elm are naturally durable and would put up with more neglect.
OK I will put my anorak away again :grin
Irvine
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If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't)
I don't :z18
Sandy
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Hi Rob
I may seem to be missing your point because I think you're wrong. This started from the notion that a wooden handle communicates more vibration to the angler's hand - I've given my reaction to that - in a fly fishing outfit pretty much every piece of the system attenuates or damps vibration before it reaches the grip.
Although I disagree with Irvine about the viability of alternatives to cork grips - I do agree that cork comes complete with natural properties which suit the job particularly on fly rods - light, suitable bulk modulus, water resistant and the caster's hand has the right type of hold on the smooth firm surface. (The hard composite grip I mentioned earlier seemed to bruise my hand and my fingers were sort of 'stuck' to the surface, not what I'm used to and seemed to me to cause cramp. No doubt I could learn to deal with that.)
Irvine
I doubt wood is heavier than cork/rubber composite - the additional mass is like having a heavier seat or reel - because it's under the hand the additional mass is not enough to change how the rod casts. (The XD Competition I tried is built on the same blank I've used with a conventional grip so I can make a direct personal comparison.)
Research into alternatives to cork has been going on for decades. In "The Technology of Fly Rods" Don Philips writes about several people working on the problem and says - "The technology to produce lightweight foam materials with higher bulk modulus may not be far away." Clearly he thought it was coming and seemed to welcome it - bearing in mind he was involved in composite rod design for over 30 years.
If we want a replacement for cork (and maybe we don't) then it would make sense to start looking at materials that have the properties we want rather than modifying materials that don't.
I tend to agree with that line of thinking - which is why cane rods continue to puzzle me :grin
Custom grips, whether they be wood, bark, or fancy combination of stacked materials are not replacements for cork, they are viable cast-able, fish-able functional alternatives. Different nuance Irvine. Foam could replace cork if manufacturers can get the properties right and bring the cost of a decent grip down. Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder.
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Hi Magnus :z16
Re: "Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder."
Good point ...... I think custom builders are experimenting with these more because they like to make things ( and give their build character / originality ) than because they are trying to find an alternative to cork.
Cheers
Mike
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Custom grips, whether they be wood, bark, or fancy combination of stacked materials are not replacements for cork, they are viable cast-able, fish-able functional alternatives. Different nuance Irvine. Foam could replace cork if manufacturers can get the properties right and bring the cost of a decent grip down. Bark, wood and the other alternatives are all more expensive than cork so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder.
Magnus
You do wonders for my education. I had to look up bulk modulus. Now I know what it means. :grin
OK I guess the viability of the alternatives is in part a mater of person preference and I have said enough about mine.
I am surprised that a cheaper-but-just-as-good or a better-but-about-the-same-price material has not yet been developed after decades of research. They have managed to produce some very fancy multi-layered soles for sports shoes so you would imagine that a handle for a fishing rod would be simple by comparison. Whether Q. suber has cracked it or not remains to be seen. I suspect if it was that good then Sage or Orvis would have bought it out and put a patent on it. :z8
Cheers
Irvine :z15
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Page 34 of the March issue of FF&FT might have the answer to cork.......
Magnus, know anything about them :?
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Page 34 of the March issue of FF&FT might have the answer to cork.......
Magnus, know anything about them :?
Well done Hamish ..... You've just taken us back to the 1st post of this thread! :z7 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Sandy and I have had this new product in our hands, but not on a rod and not fished with it though :wink
Best wishes
Mike
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:z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Post 2 of this thread Hamish - yes I know about them and I have a sample on a rod if anyone would like to try it.
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Ahhh, so that's the same company then....... right, I would b interested in giving it a whirl :wink
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Irvine
I am surprised that a cheaper-but-just-as-good or a better-but-about-the-same-price material has not yet been developed after decades of research.
Read through this thread and you'll get some ideas of the resistance a new grip material faces as a potential replacement for cork.
As an aside - there's a super documentary DVD called The lost World of Mr Hardy - in that film Jim Hardy talks about the transition from Cane to Glass - Hardy felt forced to follow market trends and introduce glassfibre rods but didn't like them. He states they deliberately made bad glass rods, inferior to cane and well below what they knew glass could achieve. He also talks about Dick Walker's input to their patent on carbon fibre rods - where Walker specified the proportion of carbon in a rod, far too low because he didn't think he liked stiff rods and provided Hardy with a totally worthless patent.
The tackle trade may seem like it embraces new technology but in reality it's a very small industry. Some companies are getting more progressive in their thinking but many are run by individuals who stick with the tried and trusted until forced to change - even then it can seem like both individuals and companies deliberately try to delay change.
Back to grips - anyone recall Orvis running a series of rods (original Tridents I think) with vibration damping foam between the cork and blank.
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Hi Magnus
Yes, it was on the Tridents, I can remember Sandy repairing a handle on one and it took us a while to work out what the foam was for. An interesting concept :wink
Cheers
Mike
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Back to grips - anyone recall Orvis running a series of rods (original Tridents I think) with vibration damping foam between the cork and blank.
Yup, until recently I had one. Sandy replaced the original 'damped' cork with something sensible.
For those who aren't familiar with the what was done, on top of the blank was a rubber sleeve which was sheethed in a carbon 'blank' which in turn had the cork built on top. Weird :shock
IMHO didn't work too well either, with a sensible handle fitted the rod was transformed :cool:
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So what about composite handles like this folks ..... Do you like them?
(http://flyfishingmasters.se.server363-han.de-nserver.de/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/zebrahandle_s_p1.jpg)
Cheers
Mike
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So what about composite handles like this folks ..... Do you like them?
(http://flyfishingmasters.se.server363-han.de-nserver.de/out/oxbaseshop/html/0/dyn_images/1/zebrahandle_s_p1.jpg)
Cheers
Mike
Not really but then again they look better than my 10 footers handle as it has a great big blob of epoxy where the filler fell out :z6,great for sensitivity though :z7 :z4 :z4
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They look a bit to fancy for me!
I like things plain and simple :wink
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so they will never replace cork but, like cane rods, they will have emotional appeal to the custom builder.
I can't help it, I'm sensitive :z6
Back to grips - anyone recall Orvis running a series of rods (original Tridents I think) with vibration damping foam between the cork and blank.
Stealth grips from submarines :shock Cork is a great damper, being a relatively uni-directional substance, why they felt they needed to seperate this from the blank with a rubber sheath, i'll never quite work out.
The rubber sheath has its place, but certainly not in the hand :z4 :z4 :z4
Sandy
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I may seem to be missing your point because I think you're wrong.
If you ever get the chance to see the research done on "bite detection" between nylon (stretchy) and braided (non stretchy) lines by Fox International (Published in Carpworld Magazine), you will see my logic.
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Alternative handles...
The use of Lamar Cork Burl (Lamar fishing)seems to be very popular in the US..some of the pictures below use it. It is a composite cork, meaning you get the benefits of cork, but without the flaws in it, plus it wont rot or dry out. It is slightly heavier, so all you need do is over bore it and use carbon or foam arbors. Sorted. http://www.fishsticks4u.com/Components/Lamar/Lamar1.htm
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=15041
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20531
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20488
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19948
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19935 (Lamar cork)
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19485 (Stunning workmanship!!)
http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=19367 (Lamar)
(http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=484)
(http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=458)
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq360/PeterMulbjerg/Rattan/Rattan1.jpg)
(http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq360/PeterMulbjerg/Rattan/rattan2.jpg)
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Oddly enough I've fallen on another cork composite grip - so to speak. I've a Custom built rod for review at the moment - took it out for a casting session today. I like this grip, not as hard or tacky,sticky as the ones I've tried before.
Rob - if you read my posts you'll see I'm quite aware that there's a world of difference between braid and nylon.