Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Hamish Young on 18/12/2008 at 15:00
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Interesting threads so far, the tailing loops and double-haul have kept me amused for hours :z16
But here's my question - in a round-about kind of way - the other day Ben and I were out scientifically trying out rods and lines in a field (ok, we were playing :z4) and I was doing ok, but not as good as I could.
Ben pointed out that my tracking was bloody awful (too many years boat fishing perhaps :!) and made a couple of suggestions which, like the good student I try to be, I immediately acted on.
Suddenly, with a few tweaks on my tracking I was casting further and more importantly the line landed in a nice staright line. Smidgen easier too and to be honest I was surprised how far I could actually get the outfit I was using to go with only a single haul........ it was most enlightening. A couple of personal best distances in less than ideal conditions were the result but, more importantly, a very valuable lesson learnt I think :z3
But anyway..... the question.
Which should come first:
1. Getting your tracking right :?
2. Getting the double haul right :?
or
3. Neither, it needs to be a combination of both :?
I await diverse replies with interest :wink
Hamish :z3
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My answer is neither of the above!
The correct answer is: :z4
1. The correct line.
2. The correct fly.
3. Worry about the casting another day!
Oh and get out more!
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3. Worry about the casting another day!
Oh and get out more!
Well, I did ask for diverse opinions I suppose :!
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:wink :z18
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I'll stick my neck out and say that tracking is a skill to be practiced & honed from the outset. I guess you can fish reasonably successfully all of your life without hauling (I know how this unlocks major possibilities but...) laying a straight line, or more importantly, the fly accurately is to be saught and it also builds in that all important muscle memory for future advancement.
:z1 cue barrage!
Iain
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Ian,
No neck out and certainly no barrage on this site .
that tracking is a skill to be practiced & honed from the outset
I have to say yes, of course. Not understanding tracking and having casts go wrong because of that , simply leads on to other "casting difficulties" and removes the possibility of advancing our casting potential.
We all fly fish for enjoyment . Putting out "a good cast " increases that enjoyment .
Bigtroot , " it's called Fishin not Catchin ' " . :z4
Good casting is not an end to itself .
It should be , per se, good fishing too. :wink
Paul.
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Ian,
No neck out and certainly no barrage on this site .
I have to say yes, of course. Not understanding tracking and having casts go wrong because of that , simply leads on to other "casting difficulties" and removes the possibility of advancing our casting potential.
We all fly fish for enjoyment . Putting out "a good cast " increases that enjoyment .
Bigtroot , " it's called Fishin not Catchin ' " . :z4Good casting is not an end to itself .
It should be , per se, good fishing too. :wink
Paul.
Everyone to there own but i go fishing with the hope to catch fish, if i wanted to go casting i would not bother using flies :z8
Its all in good humour lads , just a shame i am not inteligent enough to understand all the big words used in these posts :z16
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Its all in good humour lads , just a shame i am not inteligent enough to understand all the big words used in these posts
Hi Baz,
sorry for using big words, I'm not sure which ones you mean so I've taken the liberty of guessing
courtesy of the Oxford English Dictionary;
Barrage -(noun) a large balloon type floaty thing.
Neck - (noun) the meaty cylindrical object that houses the throat and keeps the head away from the body.
:z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Iain
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, if i wanted to go casting i would not bother using flies :z8
Who needs flies :z12
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Seriously though
I'd say it is probably easier to get your tracking sorted, but less likely to be on your shopping list :z6
On the whole a combination of the two is what we are all aiming for, so if you have the rudiments of the double haul already then concentrate on the tracking.
However if starting from scratch, the time it takes to get into a good habit of tracking the rod in the same plane during the casting is well worth learning first, you'll
get far more benefit from the haul once you start on it and it'll also improve all aspects of your fishing, from distance to presentation.
So you WILL notice the difference, you'll find casting easier and less hard work and consequently concentrate on fishing more and find it all less tiring :grin.
Tracking is all important on the river when you want to shape the casts, so i'd definatley go for it first :z16
But the double haul, once mastered is an equally useful tool and a hard thing to stop once you get the knack :z16
Sandy
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Ok excuse me for not been a proper geek but could someone please explain in simple terms for all of us who dont understand the casting lingo , what is tracking? and why is it a big deal?
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If you are altering your tracking watch those alloy wheels......sorry could not resist it. :z12 :z12 To see what is happening when you cast stand sideways on to the cast and watch the line s path, also try over linning the rod to start with , you will have more control , just remember to slow things down. Its called fishing ...not casting lol :grin :grin :grin :grin :grin
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The only way I can think to describe tracking briefly is it's the path the rod/rod tip follows relative to the load applied to the rod by the casting action. Confused :?
Yeah, me too :wink
So let's imagine you are overhead casting directly in front of you, so the cast is straight forward and straight back through a vertcal plane, not out to the side. The casting arm accelerates the rod and stops the rod in the normal action required of cast. In an ideal situation the tip should follow in a straight line and it would be considered an efficient cast. If the rod doesn't go through that imaginary straight line then it's not tracking correctly - there must have been some lateral movement or osscilation of the rod tip.
Now that could be down to a lack of concentration on the part of the person casting or it could possibly be the rod itself (less likely).
So in essence,good tracking is a straight line, bad tracking is a wiggly line when it comes to the movement of the rod during the cast.
Jings, now I try to explain it my lack of technical gobboldy gook is baffling me :oops
I hope that sheds some light, could maybe explain that better :z6
Perhaps someone will :z4 :wink
Hamish :z3
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The only way I can think to describe tracking briefly is it's the path the rod/rod tip follows relative to the load applied to the rod by the casting action. Confused :?
Yeah, me too :wink
So let's imagine you are overhead casting directly in front of you, so the cast is straight forward and straight back through a vertcal plane, not out to the side. The casting arm accelerates the rod and stops the rod in the normal action required of cast. In an ideal situation the tip should follow in a straight line and it would be considered an efficient cast. If the rod doesn't go through that imaginary straight line then it's not tracking correctly - there must have been some lateral movement or osscilation of the rod tip.
Now that could be down to a lack of concentration on the part of the person casting or it could possibly be the rod itself (less likely).
So in essence,good tracking is a straight line, bad tracking is a wiggly line when it comes to the movement of the rod during the cast.
Jings, now I try to explain it my lack of technical gobboldy gook is baffling me :oops
I hope that sheds some light, could maybe explain that better :z6
Perhaps someone will :z4 :wink
Hamish :z3
Got it now Hamish, so we were right it is just like alloy wheels , straight line good tracking , wiggly line bad tracking. :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
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:z4 :z4
Never really understood why casting threads have to deal with sarcasm (all in fun of course) about being casting threads.
Mike or Hamish - did you get any footage from the judging end of the Dunkeld shootout?
Just a point about tracking - Hamish describes it well for a straight-line cast. Good tracking for a spey or roll or.... might not seem to mean quite the same thing. I think the basics of good tracking start with the line path during back and forward casts and getting them at as near 180 to one another as possible. For my part I think tracking comes before haul - good tracking is one of the foundations of all forms of casting not just hauled casts.
Magnus
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No sorry Magnus, I didn't get any videos from the judging end :z6
Cheers
Mike
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Me neither :z6 :z10
But I might have some other short footage of Lee and Paul in practice before the shootout, I'll check :z17
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http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1136.0 (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1136.0)
Might be worth a look at the videos on the last post :z17
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:z4 :z4
Never really understood why casting threads have to deal with sarcasm (all in fun of course) about being casting threads.
Mike or Hamish - did you get any footage from the judging end of the Dunkeld shootout?
Just a point about tracking - Hamish describes it well for a straight-line cast. Good tracking for a spey or roll or.... might not seem to mean quite the same thing. I think the basics of good tracking start with the line path during back and forward casts and getting them at as near 180 to one another as possible. For my part I think tracking comes before haul - good tracking is one of the foundations of all forms of casting not just hauled casts.
Magnus
Cool :z12 Got it now Magnus, was a bit lost for a while, my ignorance, ??? couldn't figure out what tracking was in relation to casting. :z6
Alex
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Never really understood why casting threads have to deal with sarcasm (all in fun of course) about being casting threads.
Yes ..... I don't understand that either :z3
Cool Got it now Magnus, was a bit lost for a while, my ignorance, couldn't figure out what tracking was in relation to casting.
Alex
I know that you are keen to come along to the Outcasts Alex and you raise a good point ....... For those that are interested, would it be a good idea if we tried to put together a "jargon buster" list for some of the more common terms?
Cheers
Mike
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Yes ..... I don't understand that either :z3
I know that you are keen to come along to the Outcasts Alex and you raise a good point ....... For those that are interested, would it be a good idea if we tried to put together a "jargon buster" list for some of the more common terms?
Cheers
Mike
Would certainly help me a bit, I get a bit lost with some of the TLD's (Three Letter Designators) & technical terms:oops
Alex
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Alex
If we use a term or initials you don't understand just ask. All sports, like most things we do, generate some shorthand and jargon terms, makes things easier to talk about but can make it seem a bit like a foreign language - you get used to it.
Mike
A casting glossary is a good idea - incidentally a glossary of fishing terms could be just as useful.
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Hi Magnus
Sandy already started a good "glossary of fishing terms" thread ....... which is cool :z16
See http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=854.0 (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=854.0)
Would yourself, Ben, Paul, Peter, Hamish etc be willing to do something similar for casting? As you well know, I'm still getting to grips with some of the terminology myself and probably would not be the best person to try to put something like this together :wink A combined effort in a thread would be cool?
Cheers
Mike
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Hi Mike
I've been around groups trying to define casting terms - good way to lose friends. IMHO its best if we have a glossary and as terms come up, if there is any question about what's meant we clarify them and stick them in the bank.
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It was interesting that Hamish mentioned the rod.
I find that you can build a rod in a way that optimises its ability to track in a straight line.
Now this is not saying the rod will improve your tracking, but if you have a rod that doesn't track straight, then even if you do it can throw out your accuracy.
This is not so big a deal when you get a fair bit of line out, as the momentum of the line will override any effect from the blank, however for close in work it can have quite an effect. Kicking the line away from the target :cry.
As for the Glossary, its a great idea, but this time i think we need to include small video clips of what we are explaining as it is very difficult to express in words many of the techniques and problems. A picture will give everyone something to work on. The outcast days also give people the opportunity to see what is being discussed directly, so are worth a trip :z18
As for casting threads, this section of the forum is called the "OUTCASTS" and is here for casting queries, so it doesn't interfere with those "who just want to fish" on the main Forum :z16
Sandy
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Sarcasm, if so it was not meant as such. Anyone who knows me will confirm that I take my fishing quite seriously, and I would hope am classed as a reasonably generous sort of person. I do like to have the odd laugh and am able to take the leg pulls as well as give them. Right back at the start I pointed out the the big danger of going down the road of "casting" clubs ,groups or what ever title you want to give it, is that they become tied up (sorry for the pun) in their own existance. Dont take me too seriously, you never know I may turn up at one of your days and shake out a few underhand speys and catapult casts, oh and dont take yourselves too seriously, its enjoyment after all . :z18 jim
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Hamish,
Back to the original point, you do need to sort you tracking, it is not too bad on your FC it is the backcast that is screwing with things. You did work on that on Monday and I was astonished by the results, the line was straightening at great distance and I would say you put at least 10 feet on your cast. Your tracking was best when casting closed as would be expected but you were not getting the stroke length required for a long carry the BC stroke was too short and you were loosing it. Look at the clip of Steffan floating about on SL just now in the distance casting thread, watch him for tracking he tracks probaly better than anyone else I know but it hurts my lower back to cast like that. I think your haul is also messing with your tracking due to the time and angle of your haul. You are pulling the rod off to the side at times as you are not hauling at 180 degrees to the rod, you are hauling against the butt ring rather than through it, this also reduces the effectiveness of the haul due to increased friction.
The none hauled cast was impressive, went a long way but..... remind me..... what was the outfit you were casting :z7 :grin
I need to work on my FC, loosing 5 foot or more due to an annoying left curve :mad
We will get out again soon
Cheers
Ben
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Hi Jim
I pointed out the the big danger of going down the road of "casting" clubs
Yeah you did write that - didn't understand that either :grin - seemed like an ignorant thing to say then, seems the same now. (All said in fun you understand :z6)
Magnus
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Hi Jim
Yeah you did write that - didn't understand that either :grin - seemed like an ignorant thing to say then, seems the same now. (All said in fun you understand :z6)
Magnus
There are casters who dont fish, they only cast. Me I,ll stick with the fishing side of things and use the casting as a means to get a fly out to the fish. :wink :wink (said in a light hearted way meant to cause offence to no one ) :grin :grin :grin
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Jim
Absolutely fine by me.
The bit I don't understand is why you feel compelled to "warn" other people about what they want to do, and why as someone who's not interested in the Outcast thing you feel some overwhelming need to contribute to threads which are clearly about casting.
Maybe some people may enjoy casting more than fishing - so what? Just as a few people may enjoy fly-tying more than fishing - again - so what?
Jim there are tons of things in this world which don't interest me and even some I think are dangerous - mostly I simply don't read those threads and feel no overwhelming need to let other people hear my opinion - mostly I leave that to fanatics, politicians and televangelists.
(All in fun you understand :shock)
Magnus
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Ok, I 'm sorry if I came over in such a way. I will bow out of this thread and let those who are interested in it continue, good luck with it. :z16
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The way I see it, the more control you have of your cast, the greater your chance of catching fish, all other things being equal such as having some knowledge about how to catch a fish. I am mainly interested in catching big river trout, sometimes presenting to such fish can be tricky and require something a bit more than a standard pick up & lay down at 30 feet. Think about a situation where you need to present a dry across the stream, you have no space for a conventional back cast and cannot wade into a better position, the fish is 4lb plus and feeding hard. Unless you have a few tricks up your sleeve you would not be able to present to it, I would be pissed if I found myself in such a situation hence I do a lot of work on my casting!
CHeers
Ben
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Every other thread or Topic is allowed a good old piss take so i cant see why you cant handle it in the casting topics!
Have a laugh please as its starting to sound like some casters dont have a sense of humour!
:z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
Ho ho ho :z18
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Hi Ben
Sounds right to me. I've been of a few salt-water trips with guys who can't throw a line into the wind, can't place a fly accurately and can't deliver a fly quickly. In short they're on a complete bonefishing non-starter - their choice!
Quite honestly I don't see that any of this needs to be justified as a means to catch more fish - in particular I don't think anything about angling needs to be justified to other anglers. If you me or anyone else wants to work on casting or tying flies or make cane rods or learn to twist furled leaders or hand carve fly reels from briar wood or make our own hooks or build our own rods or make our own tying materials from what we shoot or rear our own peacocks.....so...... :z8 I don't give a damn - in fact more power to the elbows of those who want to dig a bit deeper, it's their hobby let them get on with it.
Magnus
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Hey - excuuuuse me - I thought I was having a good old piss-take by asking why they felt compelled etc etc.... :z6 What? You decide what's funny now too?
(All said in fun you understand)
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Well at least your last post made me have a wee laugh Magnus, anyway enough said i will stop now before it gets to tit for tat!
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The none hauled cast was impressive, went a long way but..... remind me..... what was the outfit you were casting :z7 :grin
For the record, they weren't my rods and I didn't break any of 'em :z4
In less than ideal conditions, the best distance I achieved was 136ft with an Orvis Helios saltwater 9ft #10wt (I love that rod..... :cool:) matched to a pink Snowbee distance line which I think Ben said was 150ft long :?
Most interesting distance was 109ft with an Orvis Helios 9.5ft 6wt matched to a #6wt Barrio Mallard - but Ben managed 111ft :z7
I also had the opportunity to play with a 9ft #6wt Helios, but was so smitten with the #10wt saltwater rod I didn't try to break it :z7 :z7
I have work to do on the tracking and haul it seems, but I'm generally a quick learner :wink
Remains to be seen if I can undo 30-ish years of doing things the wrong way though......... :shock
Hamish :z3