Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Jim Eddie on 02/12/2008 at 19:43
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I was having a bit of a practice on Saturday but had to give up in frustration :mad I could not stop throwing tailing loops , the harde I tried the worse it got.
I was casting West to East , the wind was coming North to South , does wind actually have any impact on the problem or is it just my casting ?
:z18
Jim
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Hi Jim,
this is one of my biggest annoyances - the curse of the self taught veteran?.
If I could only get a handle on this problem, I 'think' addressing this would allow me to move closer toward the technique that I'm aiming for.
Hope you weren't practicing whilst fishing! tut! tut! :z10
Iain
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I was Iain and its so wrong :z4 Seriouslly as soon as things start to go wrong , you just give up and go and fish :z4
:z18
Jim
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Yes, Mike was right leave the practicing and fishing seperate.
Practicing the double haul while fishing = new leader & an instant return to what you know
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Hi Jim,
Wind does funny things to your cast, even when you know how you should be casting you will be subconsciously compensating for the wind. You were probably overhitting the cast and making it tail, best thing for a wind is a narrow loop and high line speed but it is hard to practice either when fishing and even harder to diagnose whe I have not seen it. If you know you will be passing through Banchory at any time, drop me a line and I will have a look if the shop is not too busy.
Cheers
Ben
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What Ben said.
It's the 'one last push' that does it.
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Thanks for the advice guys , knowing what I'm doing wrong is one thing , stopping doing it is another :wink
:z18
Jim
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Jim
I went out for a wee practice in the field on Saturday. When I tried to carry more line in the air I started throwing tailing loops too.
Then I remembered that Magnus had said that to carry more line you have to lengthen your casting stroke. When I did that the tailing loops almost went away. Then I just concentrated on not jerking at the start of the forward stroke and that cured it. :grin
If you have the same fault as me that might work for you. If not, you'll have to contact your local casting guru :z18
Cheers
Irvine
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Hi Jim
Thing we didn't try at the Outcast day was the Casting Analyzer - it's essentially a rate gyro that fits to the rod butt. That measures the rate of angle change and the duration of the angle change - combine that and with 'a little' maths it calculates the angle through which the rod moves during a casting stroke - aka the casting arc.
Thing is - if you think of the line as a weight, it varies by length so the casting arc need to vary to accommodate the length of carry. Similarly, if you think of the rod as a flexible lever it bends more when we hit a cast and really try for distance - so we need to vary the arc to accommodate our casting the tempo - the speed of the rod.
When I've tried the Analyzer on un-schooled/un-practiced casters they tend to have one casting arc (typically about 65 degrees if you're interested) - with a short line their loops look wide - with a very long false cast they start to throw tailing loops = somewhere in between they throw efficient loops. To throw efficient loops with any length of line means learning to use a variable casting arc - narrower for a short line - wider for a longer line - wider for a fast hit when you intend to shoot line.
To learn that you need to learn loop control - look at the loop with a fixed length of line - make a comfortable loop - narrow the loop by using a narrower casting arc - widen the loop by opening the casting arc. You can do that with any length of line. Tailing loops tend to mean, exactly as you say, the arc is too narrow for either the length of line or the power being applied to the rod.
However - that's not the only cause of tailing loops - you can make them by shocking the rod (eg telling it male female ferrule jokes) if you start the stroke too suddenly the line can tail. If you creep the rod forwards during the pause your line will tail - actually if you creep the rod backwards during the pause before a backwards stroke you can easily make a tailing loop going that way too. (The cure for that is learning to drift the rod in the direction of the loop during the pause before starting the stroke - just that can add yards to most caster's comfortable distance.)
Magnus
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Thanks for that Magnus ,
I probaly need to try the casting anlayzer at the next Outcast day. I also probaly need somone to watch what I'm doing wrong and not what I think i'm doing wrong.
I probably aslo should have mentioned I was using the "Outcast" rod for the first time , also I have not used the line I had on it , a WF5 Cortland 444 , It did not seem to be loading the rod, it felt to light for the rod.
:z18
Jim
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Jim
Sounds like a plan :z16 I'll watch, probably not much help though.But some video footage might?
The 'outcast' rod, loaded very well with a Barrio WF5F so the 444 should be similar.
I would reckon its either the change to a 5wt (takes a bit of getting used to from a 7) or perhaps, dare i say it, Did you get Hamish to put the line on :z4 :z4 :z4
The other possibility is perhaps you were carrying too much of the standard wf and it was collapsing on you, would give the tailing loops and make it very hard to shoot.
A lot of the distance stuff is done with long head lines, have you tried doing it with a DT? if you are carrying a lot in the air.
Sandy
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Hi,
Some causes of tailing loops. My tuppence halfpenny's worth.
1) Mis-timing the cast .
If you start the rod moving forwards before the line is fully extended backwards then you will create a tailing loop on your next forward cast. The opposite also applies.
If you move the rod backwards before the line is fully extended frontwards , you will create a tailing loop on your back cast.
Cure: Do not start the rod moving until the line is fully extended front and back !! Watch your line . The timing will soon become second nature .
2) Too much power in .
This can bounce the rod tip causing a shock wave to travel along the line which when it reaches the end , throws the fly down under the fly line . This can occurr on both the front and back casts.
Cure: Take your foot of the gas . Remember the fly line weighs only a few grams . Aim to use the minumum energy required and you will become an effortless caster . Honest !
3) Too little power .
Particularly with weighted flies, the line and fly has insufficient energy to turn over resulting in a tailing loop .
Cure: Increase power application by trial and error until the loop extends above the rod tip travelling smoothly backwards and forwards on each false cast .
4) Starting the cast in one plane and ending in another . (Particularly when it's windy)
Cure : Try to picture your cast and move the rod tip backwards and forwards in the same plane . Get someone to watch you and tell you what they see. I find that it helps to keep a weather eye on your thumb to ensure that it tracks back and forth in the same plane . ie. Thumb controls direction of rod tip , rod tip controls direction of fly line .
Far easier to demonstrate these things than describe them in words. I,m sure Magnus will be able to add to /edit the above .
Agree with Ben , you need to get someone to watch you. :wink ,often what we think we are doing is not what we are actually doing.
Hope some of that makes sense and is useful to us tailing loopers. (Everybody does it sometime).
Paul.
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Jim,
One of the outcast rods I played with did have a very soft tip, cant remember which one it was, I am sure Mike will know. I was throwing serious tails with it when I first picked it up, took some getting used to.
Paul,
I am not quite sure what you mean, a tailing loop is caused by the rod tip being forced through a concave path during the stroke. I wouldnt think that changing planes during the cast would cause a tail?
Cheers
Ben
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Take up Bens offer!!!! He took me over to the field and gave me a good thrashing with a Zero gravity...did a bit of analysis...pointed out a few things...and i went away wanting the ZG but also with a bit more knowledge!
Well worth the trip to Banchory!!
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Hi Paul
Rather predictably I'd agree and disagree with some of your list of causes. As Ben says a tail is cause by the rod tip travelling a concave tip path rather than a straight or near straight path - too much power over a narrow arc is a classic form - power that's applied too suddenly causes a 'buckle' in the tip path, the tip dips below the ideal path for an instant - the tip is accelerating the line too much for that instant - then the rate of rod acceleration decreases, the rod straightens, the tip rises to nearer its ideal path - but the line was accelerated, has momentum from, that moment of excessive power, and is effectively travelling faster than the rod tip.
Too little power tends to cause big wide loops or a stalling loop - I'd hesitate to call that a tailing loop.
Changing planes during the cast is a can of worms - if the back and forward strokes are in different planes and the line fully extends the cast works fine and is a conventional casting style - its called an Oval cast or Belgian cast or if you want to get really fancy its Gebetsroither Technique :grin Many anglers and casters from mainland Europe use it - Roman Moser gave a brilliant demo at BFFI using a finger on top grip.
Changing planes during the stroke itself curves the tip path, we can use that to throw curved presentation casts. Where is gets interesting is that it can turn the loop on its side - some demonstrators use it to make their loops look tighter than they are. When we do that unintentionally it can cause problems straightening the line - the end of the line stalls or struggles to turn over - again I would hesitate to call the effect a tailing loop.
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Hi Guys,
Yep, I hear what you are saying but for me a "tailing loop" involves any situation where the end of the loop is below and travels across the main portion of line being cast.
Cheers,
Paul.
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I would say that the line follows the rod tip, if the rod tip is forced through a U shape (concave path) during the stroke then the top leg of the loop will have a U shaped dip in it, if the U is deep enough (compared to loop height) a tailing loop results, the top leg crosses the bottom leg twice.
Cheers
Ben
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Hi Ben and Magnus,
Sorry for the rather short reply last time ,(bit Mackenzie Philps there on re-reading Magnus eh ? :shock ) . Totally agree with that Ben , of course.
On the subject of changing planes/tailing loops and at the risk of opening Magnus's can of worms :z4 my point 4 I realise needs clarification . If the rod hand is dropped (or raised) after the stop then the forward cast can be in a different plane ,having introduced a similar wave to the U shaped dip ,and the result can be a tailing loop. This is slightly different from the concave path (rod tip bounce) route to a tailing loop . At least that is my understanding of the dynamics .Sorry I did,nt explain what I meant very well in the first text.
Cheers,
Paul.
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Hi Paul
Hey - I liked McKenzie Philps :grin
If the rod hand is dropped (or raised) after the stop then the forward cast
Ok - so I have the rod horizontal, parallel to the ground, and make a back-cast, during the pause I swing the rod vertical and make a forward cast - so long as the line straightens enough during the pause and I use an appropriate arc I see no problems - might induce a little twist into the line but... In that case I am using two different planes during the cast.
I use a more conventional slightly off-vertical or completely vertical style, pick one - either way I'll stick to the same plane. Throw a back-cast - while waiting during the pause:
A) I raise the rod tip and maintain the same rod angle so the arc on the forward cast is unchanged - no problem, no reason that should tail. (Somewhat pointless unless it takes the rod to a more comfortable or powerful position)
B) I rotate the rod forward, lifting the tip and reducing the arc for the forward cast - that's classic creep and will cause a tailing loop. (concave tip path)
C) I reach my hand and the rod farther back without changing the rod angle - no problem, no reason that should tail - can be helpful in controlling a long carry and delaying rotation.
D) I lower the tip increasing the rod angle - can produce a wide loop but can also allow me more arc, more bend during that last whack - most top line casters do it.
E) I reach my hand and the rod farther back and increase the rod angle - can produce a wide loop but can also allow me more arc, more bend during that last whack - many top line casters do it.
F) I reach my hand and the rod farther back and reduce the rod angle - I am a contortionist, will inevitably throw a tailing loop and probably rip the rotator cuff in my shoulder. (concave tip path)
In all those the assumption is that the conditions , the wind mainly, mean the arc back and forwards is more or less the same. If you are dealing with a very strong wind from behind you will probably want a faster line going backwards - so the arc will be wider - and you may usefully use a narrower arc on the forward cast and would use B to adjust the arc. However if you throw a tail on that forward cast, assuming your loop straightened at the end of its backwards travel, ie the loop straightened and the line was straight and tight, it would mean you had narrowed the arc too much - causing a concave tip path. More likely the line going back into the wind will have slack in there, so a wider arc and a longer stroke may still pay dividends.
(IMHO that comes into play more obviously casting into the teeth of a strong headwind - when we need a load of power going forwards and far less going back. During false casting the rod tip tends to rise while the forward loop is straightening - as we start the backward stroke the line can feel light.)
Magnus
PS this is an old clip of Steve Rajeff casting distance with light gear - look at what follows the hard stop - he drifts the rod backwards and opens the rod angle on every cycle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-eBrkeU2gA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-eBrkeU2gA)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWrdLCW3jQs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWrdLCW3jQs)
The other Rajeff on tailing loops - Tim is a superb caster (and a natural comedian.)
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I liked the clip Magnus , he is indeed funny :z4 who would have thought my crap casting could spark such an interesting thread :z16
:z18
Jim
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Hi Magnus,
Thanks very much for that . Much appreciated . Videos added to my collection :grin .
In the first scenario I guess the key phrase is "so long as the line straightens enough " .
Totally agree with what you,ve said. Same as saying that the caster has started the forward cast before the line has fully straightened ?
OK, next bit. No problems with A to C but I am having a problem visualising D -- "I lower the tip increasing the rod angle - " .
So I'll talk myself through it here.What I am thinking is that if the caster , having completed his backcast, line fully extended straight behind , then suddenly drops his rod hand , dropping the rod tip and line below the level of the backcast ,could this not then induce a power wave which could result in a TL ?
Obviously it's a question of degree . How far is the drop and how sudden the movement . I guess that still encompasses the concave path scenario , I'll probably have to concede :grin
The idea I still have is that the rod hand must be kept at the same height ( even when the line is fully extended behind ).
Has current thinking changed on this ?
Lefty video clip , to see what I mean . By the way I would not advocate his teaching by embarassment method :shock :z4
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3U_FnbGfc0I
This may seem like splitting hairs to some folk I realise but for me it is important to know exact cause and effect. I remember we had a discussion a few years (many years ) back about this . So the present discussion is very useful to me at least , and hey is,nt that what the casting forum is all about ? :wink
Paul.
PS: Did you really like McKenzie -Philps ? :z4
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I was out fishing on Sat and found myself casting Tailing Loops, very frustrating. So After a few I calmed down and just slowed my whole cast down. Bang they were gone with a good turnover.
I know this isnt a technical post, but it helped me out :z8 :z16
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Hi Paul
Exactly the same as "the caster has started the forward cast before the line has fully straightened".
Visualising D - nope - have a look at the clip of Steve Rajeff - his loops are thrown back and during each pause while the loop is unrolling as it goes back, his preparation for the forward stroke is to drop the rod tip by rotating the rod backwards. He opens the arc rather than trying to punch forward through the same arc he used for the backcast - he's well aware that on the backcast he was simply carrying line - whereas on that final drive he wants to shoot a load of line - that requires more acceleration and will bend the rod more deeply - so to maintain a relatively linear tip path he needs to use a wider casting arc.
There is no need for that drifting motion to be sudden - bearing in mind it needs to be timed - the line hand plays a part in feeling tension in the line and feeding back from the haul, I think I use the line hand feeding line up as a cue for my rod drifting back???
No that doesn't come into the concave path - it happens between strokes during the pause. Seriously - try it - during the pause as you feed line up the rod and bring your hauling hand back to position let your rod drift back a few degrees. Thing is Paul I would not be surprised if you don't already do it unconsciously and very surprised if you can't consciously do it.
Since we were with SANA and SCAIC and all that I've been exposed to a load of other stuff, lots coming from Sexyloops and FFF instructors and some UK guys. The variable casting arc was the key concept - creep and drift followed. As far as I know the term creep was coined by Bill Gammel and he explained it at length on SL - Bill is a highly respected US casting instructor and with his father co-authored The Essentials of Fly Casting. The first person to show me how to drift was either Hywell Morgan or Jim Tomlinson - its been around the Tournament casting circuit for many many years.
Bill Gammel and his father worked out what they think are the underlying essentials for any cast:
1. The rod tip must travel along a straight line.
2. Vary the size of the casting arc according to the amount of line outside the rod tip.
3. The pause between each cast to allow the line to straighten must get longer as the line gets longer (correct timing). Learn to vary the timing and the stroke length to maintain the straight-line path of the rod tip.
4. The power must be applied at the proper place, at the proper time.
5. Slack must be kept to a minimum.
Those are based on observation and casting mechanics and I can't pick any significant holes in them (- see below.) As far as I know those essentials guide the mechanics used when FFF instructors teach and as I read the AAPGAI syllabus it looks like they have adopted them too although not explicitly. The great thing about those is that they seem to apply to any and all casting styles - teach with those in mind and you need not teach a casting style.
Lefty is talking absolute bollocks about the hand path if he thinks that applies to all casts or all casting styles - try this http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/cnlpaul/cnlpaul2.mpg or trace the hand paths in those Rajeff clips.
The style Lefty is advocating is essentially a sidecast he's saying the plane of the cast should be aligned front and back. The guys he's humiliating doesn't use his style. There are simply so many examples of where that idea of sliding the elbow along a bookshelf is simply wrong advice - try it with an upright overhead style. Paul Arden's old Flip Flop style is an extreme example but it works - he's since changed style because Flip Flop seemed to max out at around 115 to 120ft. Even with that style the hand path changes as the carry changes - becomes steeper and shorter with a short line - longer and more horizontal with a long line. What he can't do with that is gain loft. Look at a shooting head tournament caster and because they are using a relatively short head they can angle the backcast down and track the rod so it ends high - angling the casting plane up.
Look at us when we teach novices to deal with wind - the casting arc is rotated so the line path is angled up or down - into a headwind we throw a high backcast and a low forward cast. How exactly can we do that without changing the hand path - how on earth can Lefty do that and maintain that flat hand path - he can't!
This is a far better piece by Lefty - but look at the first few pickup and laydown casts - rod side foot forwards and note his handpath. Then the principles - eliminate slack - absolutely right! If I have any problems with Lefty its that he says we should teach casting without being dogmatic about style then when he teaches he is dogmatic about casting style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nJ9xGuSH7g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nJ9xGuSH7g)
Lefty's principles are here http://www.hoaff.org/newsletters/NL2003-04.pdf if your interested. I have a few issues with Lefty's Principles in this form - bear in mind these principles are meant to apply to ALL casts.
1 - Getting the end of the line moving - aka eliminating slack - sounds fine as it stands but excludes all roll and Spey casts.
2 - Accelerating the hand sounds fine but if you try accelerating your rod hand without rotating the rod you will get no speed gain whatsoever from the rod. Moving your arm so the rod angle changes and the rod accelerates and loads as it rotates is what he means.
The sudden stop was sometimes called the Power Snap it was never called the power stoke - it was called the stop. (There's good reason to think a sudden stop is not essential - http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/rodcast.shtml)
The size of the loop is NOT determined solely by by the distance the rod moves in the final part of the speed up and stop. A wide loop is often a product of the whole casting motion - the rod is never properly loaded and we throw a big wide loop - what Mel Krieger calls a non-loop.
3 - The line does not always go in the direction the rod speeds up and stops. In a snap cast the rod accelerates to a stop going in the opposite direction to the loop. In any curve and many other presentation casts the rod and line are not producing the simple motions Lefty clearly has in mind. Remember according to LK these apply to ALL casts.
4 - I sort of agree with him on this one - long cast long stroke - short cast short stroke. When carrying line, false casting, I would argue that the stroke length is proportional to the length of line in the air.
However, again there are plenty examples where that does not apply - check a caster using a shooting head style (see the clip of Steve Rajeff) - their stokes always tend to be short and clipped and their arms rarely extend far behind their bodies. Most DH casters already know they can't extend their arm behind to lengthen their stroke. Underhand style with a DH rod uses a very short clipped stoke....more if required.
If you want me to go on about Lefty I can - he also says that casting instructors commonly teach that the stroke using a clock face - very very few now use that analogy. He argues that the Haul should only be about 6 inches long - he's wrong - it can be as long as your arm, it's easier to make a long fast haul if you don't stand the way he stands....probably the only certainty about the haul is that the haul should not end before the rod comes straight and the loop forms.
Magnus
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Hi Magnus,
That was great , much food for thought .Too much there for a quick reply . Let me have a good think and as a Council colleague often says , "I'll get back to you " .
Much appreciated .
Paul.
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Hi again Magnus,
Okay dokay here's my further thoughts...
" so to maintain a relatively linear tip path " ,if he doesn't would he get a TL ?
Is,nt line speed vitally important here too ? Although he has dropped the rod point I suspect that the backward line speed is gonna straighten things out here anyway ?
" I think I use the line hand feeding line up as a cue for my rod drifting back???"
Me too but I also watch the backwards travelling loop and try to match the speed of my haul hand backwards to that so that I arrive at a point where the line is fully extended and I am ready to start the forward haul. I am probably behind the times in doing that I think ? and I probably don't drift the rod backwards nearly enough when trying for absolute distance.The other thing I do which seems to have fallen out of favour (not mentioned too often nowadays anyway) is to feed line into both the forward and backward hauls. Again as you note this will deepen the bend in the rod (at the expense of line speed I know). Does Steve Rajeff do this or does he and other mega distance casters concentrate on winding up the rod ,getting the line speed optimised and shooting ?
Mention of Jim Tomlinson reminds me of watching him at Fyvie . I,ve never seen anyone demonstrate such an efficiency of effort , everything put in comes out , no energy wastage and probably why it looks effortless.
Would,nt disagree with any of the basic 5 tenets from Bill Gammel but again like everything else in casting as soon as we try and simplify things we make room for an exception to the rule !
For example , the rod tip does not travel along a straight line in a snake roll . So I think we have to agree that spey casts, roll casts, switch casts , etc, are different from single overheads. So we are maybe being a bit hard on old Lefty here . :shock
"The size of the loop is NOT determined solely by by the distance the rod moves in the final part of the speed up and stop." Agreed , I always wondered about that one. :wink
Also , I have kind of accepted his other mantra here in that "the longer you take to stop the rod the wider a loop you will get , and it's converse ,the faster you stop the rod the narrower the loop " ?
"probably the only certainty about the haul is that the haul should not end before the rod comes straight and the loop forms." Yup , I can see that clearly. Also "the haul should not begin before the line is almost fully straight and the loop has unformed " ??
I have a few more questions regarding double hauling and rod actions etc but for neatness sake I'll start another thread .
Thanks for letting me pick your brains :z7
Cheers for the noo,
Paul.
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Hi Paul
We need hi-speed video to resolve a load of these issues and questions - sadly not something that's often available to fly-casters.
Yes, naturally there is a relationship between line-speed and what you can do during the pause. If the line is not travelling fast enough to straighten you can wave goodbye to a decent forward cast. The loop needs to be travelling back fast enough to straighten and ideally to straighten the rod leg of the loop.
The return speed of the hauling hand is geeky but interesting topic - if you're a casting geek. Watch some of the guys who can carry an extreme line and use a long stroke (not Rajeff) they throw the line back and as their hailing hand is coming back to the rod their rod is also coming forwards to meet their hauling hand. Incidentally Lefty does this when he's throwing long. The long stroke means they end up with their arm behind their body - very weak position. Surprisingly they can still drift the rod backwards, they can still open the angle of the rod - they use translation to bring the rod forwards and rotation to drift the rod backwards :z4
Shooting line in both directions is simply an advanced skill. With practice it can be quite precise. All proficient shooting head casters use that technique, they find the maximum distance between the read of the head and the rod tip at which they can false cast well - then on the last or delivery stroke they shoot into the backcast for maximum distance. Saltwater anglers tend to has that in their armoury too - from the casting platform they have the fly in theor hand and most of the WF head outside the tip - the running line is on the deck. A fish is spotted and they have moments to get the line into the air and the fly away - often they will roll the fly out of their hand, shoot line into the backcast and present the fly - its that fast - good-uns can land a fly at 90ft doing that.
There is a debate about the effect of hauling on rod bend. Dunno about you but I move the rod more slowly when I haul - that why I haul. Compare a hauled cast to 40ft and an unhauled cast to 40ft. the line needs to travel at the same speed whether the cast was hauled or unhauled. IMHO the bend is effectively the same.
In a Snake roll - when the tip tracks in a circle and repositions the line the tip obviously does not travel in a very straight or flat path - whe the delivery is made the rod laods and unloads and the tip does travel in a straight path. If you use the loops shape as a stymptom and work back to the cause - a good Snake Roll produces a conventional loop shape - to make that loop shape the tip traveled in a straight path.
"...the longer you take to stop the rod the wider a loop you will get , and it's converse ,the faster you stop the rod the narrower the loop " ?
We really slow the butt, the rod recovers straight and the tip continues into counterflex - have a look at
http://revver.com/video/238295/paradigm-1/ (http://revver.com/video/238295/paradigm-1/)
If Mattias shortened his stroke, narrowed the arc or casting angle, he might be able to make a tighter loop. If he pushes through and makes a longer stroke, wider arc or casting angle, he can make a wider loop. That's essentially loop control. On the other hand he could use a rod with a faster action - as here
http://revver.com/video/238440/tcr-1/ (http://revver.com/video/238440/tcr-1/)
Or get really butch and use a huge backcast which should produce awful loops but is letting some of the guys set records -
http://revver.com/video/141295/supersonic-back-cast/ (http://revver.com/video/141295/supersonic-back-cast/)
On the haul - look at the last clip. IMHO the neither the haul nor the stroke itself should start before the line is almost straight.
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Hi Magnus,
That last video would probably have PMP turning in his grave !
God, I can just picture him ....... :wink
Okay , kinda strayed onto hauls now .
Thanks for all that .
Paul.
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Learned two things on Saturday before the rain finally drove me in after 4 hours :
1. Scierra Aquatex jackets and those cheap ex German army goretex breeks are waterproof :wink
2. I'm still throwing fecking tailing loops :mad
:z18
Jim
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Jim,
See PM .
Yes, it was a trifle moist on Sat. :z4
Paul.
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Well fished with the Barrio Outcast prototpye (as opposed to casting) I love the rod to bits , no taling loops today ( well only 2 :oops)
I was fishing it with one of mike clear intermediares and it was turning over a goldhead lure no problem at all.
I'm pretty sure when I was casting (as opposed to fishing ) I was giving that last push before the line straightened causing the taling loop.
:z18
Jim
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Jim,
Which Outcast did you fish with, I have tried two of them, both nice rods but if it helped with your tails I think I can gues which one it was :grin
Are you coming to the indoor casting day? will have a look & see if we can banish those tails.
Cheers
Ben
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Ben
Jim has the lighter of the two outcasts, which was the one i preferred as it was a much less brutal casting machine and far sweeter to fish with.
Jim
i reckon that the tails dissappeared because you stopped trying so hard while fishing and let the rod do more of the work (which is why i loved this particular blank)
Get that sussed for casting and mix it with the haul and it'll fly on the grass too :z16 And no more tails. Its a great blank for shaping the line too. I'm still miffed it's to expensive to produce :cry
Sandy