Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Fly Tying => Topic started by: Scolopax on 17/01/2014 at 14:47
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I am new to fly fishing and looking to start fly-tying, but the posts about the vice to get, are so confusing. It seems to come down to personal preference and I have not had a play with any yet, so am not sure which one will suit me.
Most people seem to sell the first one they buy and I cannot afford to do that. So, I was wondering one night, how difficult it would be to make one ??
Here is the prototype (working version) of the Mk I.
It took a lot of R&D and re-thinking initial ideas. I have sourced all the bits myself - but the prototype has been made from stuff I found in drawers and in the garage, mostly discarded. I do not have a workshop and am not an engineer, it has all been done with a standard power drill and a vice. I need to find someone with a lathe - if I make another one :-))
Tricky some bits were, but it is up and running now. The jaws are hand ground to the profile I though might be best and the material is hardened steel. It is easy to clamp a very small midge fly, or a big salmon one, and the hook will bend before it comes loose - if you apply too much pressure to the eye!
How is it looking ??
C
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_17_01_14_2_45_17.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1655)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_17_01_14_2_45_50.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1656)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_17_01_14_2_46_21.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1657)
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Colin,
looks pretty damn good, and if it holds the hooks that you need it to securely then that is all you need.
Good effort.
Eddie. :z16 :z16
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Looks really good ...... Great stuff :z14
Best wishes
Mike
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Impressive -sort of thing Kev should take photos of as inspiration for the one he's 'going to make' machined from gold-pressed-unobtanium.
H :wink
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When do you go into production?? :cool:
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:z16
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Very impressive :z14
Muir, when will yours be complete (approx decade will do)?
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Oh good grief, are there no end to this man's talents?
Amazing stuff.
My one comment is that I suspect you'll find that the vertical "post" coming out of the top of the jaws (to which the gallows tool is attached) may get in the way of your hand when you're tying. I'd have the gallows tool coming from the main vice stem. I often find I rest my left hand on the vice (to hold material back for instance) and I think that post'll get in the way.
Very impressive though. Might come to you and order a new set of jaws for my vice! :z4
W.
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When do you go into production?? :cool:
? There are a couple of things to sort out, but it can certainly be done. As they will all be handmade, it will not be cheap - so I was trying to work out the costings and it comes out quite expensive in time. So was wondering if there was some other way of speeding up the process - does anyone know a man with a lathe ??
Thanks in advance
Colin
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Oh good grief, are there no end to this man's talents?
Amazing stuff.
My one comment is that I suspect you'll find that the vertical "post" coming out of the top of the jaws (to which the gallows tool is attached) may get in the way of your hand when you're tying. I'd have the gallows tool coming from the main vice stem. I often find I rest my left hand on the vice (to hold material back for instance) and I think that post'll get in the way.
Very impressive though. Might come to you and order a new set of jaws for my vice! :z4
W.
THANKS ! Will - Yes, I have found the gallows tool a bit of a pain already and I haven't tied a fly yet :-)) The one thing I need to sort out is that the jaws are offset from the supporting arm - so when you rotate it it isn't perfectly central - is that a real problem ??
Does anyone find that feature of the rotation - being perfectly along the axis of the hook - is crucial ?
Thanks EVERYONE for the feedback - I am very pleased with my first attempt, but sure I can improve it.
Cheers
C
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Hiya
I tie on a Renzetti (a 20yr old Presentation Series) which is rotary.
TBH I rarely use the rotary for winding stuff on, I just like the convenience of turning the fly over to exactly the right angle.
So I'd say it's not essential. But then again, If I was making one (and pigs would then fly) I'd want it to be bang on the axis!
For me the focus should be on:
1) a set of jaws that hold the hooks you want to use w/o slipping (and which are quickly set, released, and adjusted)
2) Jaw shape and vice design that allows you to get at the hook, especially the smallest sizes you are going to tie
3) Overall stability, so that nothing moves when you need to apply a bit of thread tension (esp on bigger flies)
4) Comfort (see my original comment)
There is prob. more but I can't think of anything at the moment! :z4
W.
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Hiya
I tie on a Renzetti (a 20yr old Presentation Series) which is rotary.
There is prob. more but I can't think of anything at the moment! :z4
W.
Thanks Will - exactly what I was after, I guessed that was the case with the rotary thing - as an artist/designer I can see the need for it, but in terms of essentiality, I would agree with your analysis. You can definitely 'ping' the hook and then an extra squeeze of the handle will really hold the hook in the jaws - in fact there is probably too much pressure available. So I am worried that someone will crack the jaws by cranking the handle too much.
In terms of stability - the central column is in Stainless steel - within a larger diameter stainless tube (for great height adjustment) and is VERY stable. It is very rigid.
The only disadvantage I can see is that (at the moment) there is no lock of the rotation, - so if you pull from in front, for example - the jaws may turn on the axis. Not a huge problem as there is quite a bit of friction there - even though it has PTFE washers.
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Colin,
I am with Will on the rotary function. The only time I use it is to reposition a fly to dress things underneath the fly to see better and for better access. However I do like the vice to be able to stay in the position that I put in, that said id does not require a great deal of friction to achieve this.
If you can paint the way that you do and make this vice from scratch first go then fly tying will be a breeze.
Eddie. :z16 :z16
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Colin - did you base the design of your vice on something you've seen before or is it an original piece of design :?
Just how did you manage to get some such a good finish on a prototype :? :! Impressive :!
As a matter of interest, what bits did you incorporate into the prototype :? Not sure you need the lathe, it appears very well engineered :cool:
H :cool:
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Hi Colin
As someone who dabbles with metal and wood, all I can say is superb.
To have achieved the finish on the jaws is very impressive, you must have spent some time polishing the file marks out of the jaws, (something I did not do very well on my vise) very well done.
I can see a little of the J vise in the design and that is no bad thing, it is a cracking vise.
I have assumed that there is a height adjusted screw set into the curved aluninium or steel bar on the end of the jaws, how the heck did you manage this so well?
If you incorporate an O ring between the main shaft tension handle and the main body of the vise, you should be able to micro adjust the level of friction required to rotate the main shaft to a point where the jaws will stay in place when you rotate the rear handle to see both sides of a fly.
Having mad a very rough vise that lasted for over 10 years (based on a little of the Dynaking Sidewinder and the Renzetti Master but much rougher :z4), I know how much work has gone into this project, huge respect.
Like most things in life, we really only strive to be happy with what ever we make (flies, tools, painting etc, almost anything really).
I do not think I ever really reach the point where I am happy with something I make very often but the journey is a learning curve and that is what is really rewarding.
As a first attempt with hand tools, outstanding is the only real way to describe this.
Use it for a while to learn from it and you will either be happy with it for some time before trying to improve specific points you may or may not want to change.
Live with it, enjoy using it and smile everytime you use it in the knowledge that you took a box full of metal and other bits and turned out a cracking fly tying vise.
All the best
Kev.
P.S. your paintings are amazing too.
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Thank you for all your comments. I will try to answer the questions that are in your minds.
As I have never yet tied a fly, the design was based on what I saw in other designs that seemed sensible. As I use my hands for work all day, I do appreciate the requirements of ease of use, so that helped to eliminate a lot of clutter. I also am passionate about clean simple design, anything unnecessary must go (which might apply to the Gallows tool - as I can already see a way to make that less intrusive).
The two main uprights are old rollers from an Ink Jet printer that went in the bin a few years ago (minus useful looking bits of metal and plastic). !! The really difficult thing to do in all of this is to drill a rod - with hand tools this is very tricky - as the drill bit slides off the round shaft. Getting it in the middle is essential. There are many cases on this vice where I had to do that. The piece of round steel that holds the bobbin holder had to be drilled right through the exact centre of its length and then twice through the width - each at right angles to each other - and in the centre. That was the most tricky bit. The knurled headed screws I bought for £0.48 each !
Oh, and the piece of magic was attaching the pulley for the bobbin holder - as the rod is stainless I do not have the equipment to form a pin-like head on the end to stop the pulley coming off. So whilst thinking about this in my sleep, I came up with an alternative way to do it. Drill a 1mm hole in the end of the rod (2mm in dia) and then insert the top part of a big-headed steel pin - glue it in place - simples !!
The bent arm that holds the vice needs to be adjustable up and down for different sized hooks, so there is a stainless M6 allen headed bolt on the end of the shaft to clamp it in place. It just happened to have the same size head as my piece of steel - nice! That shaft passes through the collar on the pillar (but it is in two parts) this would be replaced by a lathe turned piece if I had my way.
The rotating friction is supplied by the stainless washers which in turn clamp nylon washers onto PTFE washers which then grip the stainless collar on the pillar. It means that it is tight, but turns smoothly. And thank you for your help with the rotating centre - The design works so well as it is, that I will live with the slight offset which is because the bet arm is screwed to one of the jaws - not in the middle!
The finish on all these bits is easy to achieve in reality. Files, Emery paper and spin in a hand drill to give it a final polish with some fine cloth etc. Oh, and I should say a lot of elbow grease - and blood sweat and tears - literally.
The Vice jaws - well I thought this was going to be the hardest bit, but in the end it was easy. Just very time consuming.
They are hardened steel, so cannot be filed by normal files (without even more blood being spilt) - so they have to be ground to shape by a bench grinder (which had lain dusty in a corner for well over 25 years BTW) - then after some very delicate and careful grinding on the finer wheel to try and true up the faces as much as possible - to reduce the time taken on the next step. It was over to diamond files and hard work. Then finer diamond stones etc etc and a final polish - I intend to blacken them with gun-blue in the end.
As the handles are attached with screws they can be made to move - so now the vice handle points backwards out of the way - in line rather than forwards as it is in the picture.
Hope that all makes it clear
It will - I hope give me plenty of joy - especially considering the cost to me was almost nothing. I am still using an easel I made in 1977 from beech wood. I couldn't afford the one I wanted when I was 18 !!
It all started, because I looked at the prices and thought they were out of my reach - and the cost of a bobbin rest as an accessory - £24 - £39. So that got me thinking - the rest you have heard.
Good clean design works well and lasts.
Take care
Colin
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_18_01_14_7_50_53.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1659)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_18_01_14_7_51_18.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1660)
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Hi Colin
That is a lovely looking piece of engineering, awesome job from a garage.
I reckon you must be playing down the effort on those jaws though, working hardened steel is not for the faint-hearted and the accuracy of the finish is fab :z16
having seen quite a few of your pictures though i can imagine the effort that has gone in this, is the same you apply to your work.
Top job :z18, Can't wait to see the flies :z16
On a personal note regarding usage, I'm with Will, i never use a gallows tool, so wouldn't want it in the way, i also rest my left hand on top of the vice shank when tying, which is why i use a rotary and the only time i turn a fly is when i apply the varnish, or epoxy or i want to look at it, i never use the function for tying the fly.
I would also want somewhere to put a material spring (this i use a lot) although it could go just behind the first PTFE washer.
On a technical note Presto Black is a great way to protect the jaws from corrosion and nice and economical. :z16
Great stuff
Sandy
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THANKS SANDY !
I have just re-made the vice support as the upright part was not straight and snagged in the shaft as it slid up for adjustment of hook height - it got bent when I was bending the metal. So now it looks much cleaner in design.
Thanks also for the VERY helpful tips there, I will look into the black you suggested, gun blues are not nice things and tend to be very temporary anyway.
The gallows tool has been binned, I tried to tie my first fly last night and it was a nightmare - so it went !!!
I have seen the material springs you mention, would hackle pliers do the same job ??
The effort that went into the jaws was enjoyable, I have never minded putting effort in to get what I want. What was not enjoyable was wasting bits of steel by not getting the drill holes in the centre. That was much harder to get right.
Regarding the flies, I suppose I need lessons on that as well as I did for casting from Will.
Anyone near me willing to show me the basics ?? - I have watched one or two vids by Davie McPhail, but the principles of why 'this is done' (for example) are not obvious.
The first one I tied - was not pretty - admittedly I do not have any thread or materials yet, so I just found a feather and an old reel of cotton. So when the materials do arrive I will not be ashamed to show my first attempt. I know it will be bad :-))
regards
Colin
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_19_01_14_1_30_49.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1662)
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Definatley looking better now :z16
The spring i was meaning would just loop round the centre.
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/19_19_01_14_1_39_51.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1663)
Once you start tying you will see why i use it (although thinking about it, I use my bobbin rest extension as a sight board holder and use the spring to hold the thread :roll)
I guess it whatever you will find comfortable for you :z16
Will's probably a good person to advise on flytying too :wink
Sandy
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Looks fantastic :z16
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Yep drop me a line Colin, we'll sort something out. No Problem.
W.
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Funny, I was just about to suggest going to see Will, he ties an irritatingly nice fly. I'd suggest Will starts you on his Copydex poppers, that way everything else will be a piece of cake :wink
Ben
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:X2 :X2 :z4
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Well, what can I say. Ben was right, when Will opened his boxes to show me some sample flies, I was amazed, they looked so small and dainty compared to most that I had seen.
But I can see why, with almost minimal hand movements, he showed me how to tie a Hendrickson's Spider (never even heard of that one) and several others. I was full of admiration for with such little fuss - patterns were appearing on the table in no time.
I thought back to the mess of broken feathers on the floor upstairs from my attempts . . .
Thank you so much Will, for letting me in of the art of tying. I had a list of things I couldn't do and wanted to learn to get me started and forgot all about it until the end - but of course as Will is very used to teaching skills, he had already answered all of them.
I am very grateful for the numerous little tips that were so willingly given. I am now able to tie flies that at least bear a passing resemblance to what they are supposed to look like - Oh, and my thread doesn't keep slipping off the hook either.
Trouble is now, everywhere I go I am thinking about materials for fly tying - I even dream of tying - what on earth has happened ?
Thanks Will - and to the other members for all your help - I am now bitten by a bug
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Excellent ...... let the fun begin :z16
Best wishes
Mike
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That's an Endrick Spider Colin! :z4
Glad you enjoyed it. If you pick it up as quickly as the casting you'll be turning out framed salmon flies in no time!
W.
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That's an Endrick Spider Colin! :z4
Glad you enjoyed it. If you pick it up as quickly as the casting you'll be turning out framed salmon flies in no time!
W.
Ooops - I wrote it down correctly, but when I looked for a pattern only Hendrickson came up, so thought I misheard you
Thanks
Add: Just found Mike's excellent post on how to tie the very same ! - this forum is awesome - which is more than I can say for another one !!
C
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Just realised I said that I would post my first attempts at fly tying.
Well, to start I have learnt a lot, don't even think of having a glass (or two) before or during - I had to cut all my hard efforts off the hook before I retired defeated last night !!
What have I learnt - nymphs are easier than most !! There is a HUGE amount of waste - and cats are fascinated by the bits and the FLIES, so that was worth learning quickly !
Wing slips are very difficult and the bobbin rest that seems a standard fitment to most vices - is a pain in the ..... and gets in the way. But if you leave the bobbin dangling by its own weight, it unravels the thread and makes it break even more easily. So new bobbin rest under design . . .
OK, here we go - this one was supposed to be a Black Pennel, but I got carried away - and the other thing I have learnt is that most of the feathers on my capes are way too big !!
Next one is a Black Pennel
Nymphs follow
These are my very first attempts and I am sure I will get better :-)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_05_02_14_9_01_59.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1715)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_05_02_14_9_03_58.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1716)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_05_02_14_9_05_24.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1717)
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Excellent ..... good efforts :z16
Cheers
Mike
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:z16
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Just in case you were wondering - the vice is holding up very well and I must have tied around 75 flies on it so far from 14 -10 size.
But I have had to go back into the workshop - as I got really fed up with cutting 2inches of tinsel and throwing half of it away - the same applies to the floss and all the other bits needed to tie in.
There was also another problem - Pearsall's Gossamer bobbins are tiny - I tried a makeshift way of getting them to fit the normal bobbin holder but it came apart way too many times and wrapping thread back onto a tiny bobbin is not one of my favourite occupations. I hate wasting time !!
So Micro Bobbin holders here we are. I applied the same logic to making a hackle guage and then I found some old (empty) brass cartridges -a .44 and 9mm magnum - in a drawer and they looked ideal for a hair stacker. So that was my evening sorted
Hope you had a good one too.
C
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_07_02_14_6_50_19.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1721)
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/gallery/11034_07_02_14_6_50_58.jpeg) (http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=1722)
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Nice work Colin. Really like the hair stacker. :z16
W.
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Yeah, reminds me of Dirty Harry !!
Sure you have a much better version !! As you have gathered, if I don't have something, rather than jump in the car and drive half an hour, I will spend that time making it !!
Just tied some Polish nymphs - but didn't have the right colours . . .
Still not very impressed with the capes I have - nearly all the feathers are way too big - anyone recommend a good supplier for better more narrow feathers ??
Take care
C
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(http://www.jvice.com/images/gallery/jvice_pics/jvice_495_red_oak_sm.jpg)
I take it a Jvice was the main inspiration?
http://www.jvice.com/pages/gallery_1/jvice_pictures.html
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Actually I saw this when my design was well on the way, but I do like the simplicity - the Waldron and Stonefly and the Snowbe were all taking part in its evolution.
But the main design driver was the raw materials that I had to work with - if I didn't have anything to make a design, I changed it to accommodate what I found in the drawer
C
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In the spirit of artisan work in fly tying equipment how about this one?
(http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss343/rabbitangler/IMGP4026_zps166c82c1.jpg) (http://s590.photobucket.com/user/rabbitangler/media/IMGP4026_zps166c82c1.jpg.html)
Still work in progress till I can get a decent piece of steel for the stem but tied about 20 tubes on sunday on it without much of a problem.
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Cool, nice job Pete :z16
What is it reclaimed from?
Liking the neat and organised thread collection in the background (Kev, take note).
Ben
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No reclamation, all made by me from PTFE (Nylon may have been better but it was all I had in the shed). The stem is an emergency fix till some 5/8" stainless arrives but it will be finished :wink by the time I need more tubes :X2
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Love the simplicity - was looking at adding a tube fly attachment to mine. I see the LAW vice is now on the market again. Might have a go at costing mine out :-0 Sure it would be cheaper
Take care
Colin
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My initial plan was to allow it to attach to my LAW but a separate vice was easier. Think yours would definitely be less expensive, if you want a tester.......... :z4 :z4