[Graham Allan]

as a child i was led to believe that it was perfectly legal to catch brown trout without a permit anywhere in scotland - would this be right? As an adult and having bought permits for rivers - do i have the right to fish rivers for brown trout only without a permit?

[Irvine Ross]

In a word. No.

It is illegal to fish for any species anywhere in Scotland without the owners permission.

The main legal difference between salmon and brown (non migratory) trout is that the trout fishing rights are tied to the ownership of the river or loch bank. You have to own the land to own the fishing rights. Salmon and sea trout fishing rights can be held independently of the ownership of the land. So on some beats you would need permission from two different people to fish for both salmon and brown trout.

The other legal difference is that poaching migratory fish is a criminal offence but poaching non-migratory species is a civil offence and therefore much more difficult to prosecute. The exception being where a brown trout protection order has been placed on a river, as is the case on the River Don.

Hope this helps

Irvine

[Hamish Young]

Irvines answer is spot on 

[salar35]

Um, not quite right about the need for two permits.

If you have full legal right to fish for salmon (via actual ownership of the right or written permission from same, usually by means of a letter of authority or a permit), then the right to take salmon is "superior" to the brown trout right and you can therefore take brown trout too. But if you set off to fish for brown trout alone, then a brown trout permit is required from the person holding the riparian right (ie the land contiguous to the water in question).

It doesn't seem to be too widely known that the latest Salmon Statute has taken an absolutely cracking step forward in creating the new offence of fishing for trout at a "stank" without the permission of the owner (it's not even strictly necessary for the poacher to 'take' any of the fish). Whereas the offence was previously only covered by the Theft Act of Sixteen Oatcake, where fines were in Scots Groats and Procurators Fiscal were not inclined to prosecute.

Good to see that particular situation being dragged into the 21st century, and now providing protection for stocked stillwaters.


 

[Sandy Nelson]

Whats a "stank" ?

Sandy

[Jim Eddie]

Sandy

A stank is a Scots term for a body of Still water with no inlet or outlet.

 

Jim

[Irvine Ross]

Salar

Thanks for putting me right about the right to fish for salmon being "superior" to the brown trout rights. I will know next time someone asks.

You learn all sorts of things on this forum

Irvine

[Hamish Young]

If you have full legal right to fish for salmon (via actual ownership of the right or written permission from same, usually by means of a letter of authority or a permit), then the right to take salmon is "superior" to the brown trout right and you can therefore take brown trout too.

Not entirely accurate. In many cases on Scottish rivers the ownership of the Brown Trout fishings (or in reality the owner of the non-migratory fishings) and the ownership of the Salmon (and therefore Sea Trout) fishings may be two different people on the same stretch of water. Although an angler fishing that stretch of water may hold a ticket for Salmon that does not necessarily give them the superior right to take Brown Trout unless an agreement has been reached with the owner of the Brown Trout fishings. Technically, if such a thing happened, the hapless Salmon angler caught with a couple of trout in his bag could well be prosecuted for poaching  However hypothetical such a situation is, the irony brings a smile to my face 

But if you set off to fish for brown trout alone, then a brown trout permit is required from the person holding the riparian right (ie the land contiguous to the water in question).

That's the key thing - there is no such thing as the right to fish for Brown Trout without a permit/permission 

[Rob Brownfield]

Just to throw a swerve ball, the deeds to my old house in Auchenblae gave me the right to fish for "Trout" in Loch Saugh. This was because the loch was built by the people of the villages of Auchenblae and Fettercairn and therefore free fishing was allowed..but only if your house was already in the villages when the Loch was built. We lived in the old manse and therefore it was written into the deeds, presumably because the old priest/vicar/whatever he was called liked a bit of fishing on his days off.

Unfortuantly the Brechin angling club stocked the water with Rainbows and tried to punt off the locals. However, as far as I am aware, locals still have the right to fish for "trout", which i presume would be the natural Brown Trout only.

[salar35]

Hamish's views and mine are very much the same here.......but we'll probably have to agree to differ over the need for an angler in possession of a salmon permit, to carry a separate permit from the riparian owner if he wishes to fish for or take brown trout.

Sheriff Scott Robinson's bible on Scottish game law and (to a lesser extent) Lord Jauncey's wee booklet on fish poaching (both sadly out of print), each makes the point that when fishing for brown trout in waters also containing migratory fish, the Salmon Act applies.

As a quick example, here at Stoney the salmon rights on a stretch of the Cowie where it flows through Ury Estate belong to a separate estate proprietor and the brown trout rights to the immediate landowner. Under their salmon permits, Stoney AA members can fish there for salmon, seatrout and brown trout, but we can't (and wouldn't) try to stop folk properly authorised by the riparian estate owner, fishing alongside us for brown trout. If, that is, there were keepable brownies there to catch!

Which might lead on to a discussion on where "sea trout" really figure in this equation in terms of modern research by Andy Walker and Co.........let's please not open that particular can of worms!

Incidentally, the terms "superior" and "inferior" are nae mine (I rank all three fish as equal). They're simply legalistic terms. eg a right of salmon netting is superior to the inferior rod fishings which come with the netting right(see 'Royal Inverbervie Salmon' thread).

[Graham Allan]

Thanks for all the replys.I feel very lucky that I didint spend half my childhood days in jail. Me and my friends spent most weekends Sundays included fishing burns, rivers ,loughs,ponds with worms and spinners we covered many miles by bike and bus we didint catch many fish but we some fantastic adventures .we did knock on a few doors but most of the time we just louped the dike or climbed the fence.

This gives me an idea how about a thread where reformed poachers can confess the sins they committed in there younger years ,nout to serious just a light hearted confessional bet there's some crackers out there.
                                                                                              Cheers Graham.

[salar35]

Aye, the older folk amongst us lived through halcyon days of innocent adventure in the countryside, when it was more likely to be the local "gamie" hiding behind a boulder watching us, than any alleged paedophile. In these politically correct and ultra-protective days, an adventurous loon can hardly disappear round the street corner without his parent(s) getting into a flap.................

Bring back the good old summer days when you and your pals push-biked off first thing in the morning, and your folks didn't bat an eyelid when you hadn't returned two hours into the dark. From pursuing woodies with a home-made catapult, to catching burnie troot on set lines after dumping clods into the water above the pool to create a pseudo-spate, to lying back in the grass chewing on sookie-souries and having a good "news". Jeepers, the kids nowadays wouldn't know a sookie-sourie from a docken leaf (even if they knew the latter at all, far less its prime purpose in life as Nature's own toilet roll!).

[gunner100]

 A friend of mine was a member of a syndicate which had a couple of stretches of water in the hills above Greenock about 25 years ago.

Arriving at one of the waters he found that half a dozen kids of 10 or so years were worm fishing. The conversation went like this -

Member - " Sorry, kids you can't fish here. You will have to leave "

Kids - " Aw but, mister, ye cannae dae that "

Member - " Oh yes , I can this water is for members only and you are not members "

Kids " - Aw but mister, ye cannae dae that "

Member - " Why not? "

Kids - " Cos we're fishing our annual competition."

Lyall

[nessian]

First time on the Forum and have finally got the answer to the "is brown trout fishing free in Scotland" Question, thanks, Nessian.