Casting heavy heads

« **on:** 14/04/2015 at 08:09 »

I have a few of the new Airflo Sniper Pike/Saltwater lines (9 weight)and I have to say, I am struggling with them.

I normally use Rio Outbounds and can cast a full one on a good day but these Snipers have me beat!

I seem to be plagued with either the line crashing into the rod tip, even if I open the loops, or, the fly smacking me on the back.

When it does shoot, it seems to collapse at the end of the cast in that the last 6-10 feet land in a pile. At most I am getting 20 m, I can go further than that with a standard WF 5 weight!!

I have tried speeding up, slowing down, hauling harder and so on.

Any ideas what I am doing wrong?

« **Reply #1 on:** 14/04/2015 at 11:22 »

hi Rob,
after lunch i'll have a diagram that'll hopefully explain what's happening. in the meantime stop casting !

« **Reply #2 on:** 14/04/2015 at 12:57 »

I'll be interested to see what Marc suggests Rob and I don't want to pre-empt his advice but, if you can get yourself up here, I'd be happy to help you out.
I've an idea or two about what's going on and it gives me an excuse to get my instructors head on again

Could be good craic

H

« **Reply #3 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:00 »

ok, typical scenario when the fly hits the back looks a little like this. it's a tracking issue.

seen from above, the BC is swung around in a curve. not exclusively as the basic back-hitting end result will be the same regardless of line types, this curve can/will be accentuated by the different densities of the sink-tip. (the faster tip will 'kick' more than say, a standard floater)

when the FC is performed, the repositioning of the rod tip to cast in a straight line leaves a curved end of the line and leader.

if there's no obstruction such as the caster or rod tip, this curved end only straightens out (it doesn't always straighten out... ) until it's well past, in front of the caster.
it's the exact same effect as the 'dangle' that's apparent on almost all comp-style distance casts buts its more in a tilted-over or say, horizontal plane instead of the vertical plane in distance casts.

my drawings suck but i hope they'll help a little...

maybe a better way to understand the 'curved dangle' thing is to watch this great video by my buddy Aitor.

« **Reply #4 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:27 »

hmmm, not sure that was very clear, specially as it might seem that it suggests that one should be casting this kit as if it was a 4wt dry fly...

by all means, use an elliptic cast ! (Oval, Belgian, whatever) but work on smoothing out both casting planes and maybe mostly the point where the line tip/leader/fly swing around.
what really helps with that last bit is to consciously raise the elbow (or as Robert Gillespie calls it in Spey casting: the Climbing Curve) as the line shifts from side cast to almost overhead.
another way to think of this elbow lifting is to imagine it as a vertical straight-up drift.
this lifting greatly helps to get rid of the curved tip seen in the second diagram.
cheers,
marc

« **Reply #5 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:33 »

Hi Marc,
Thank you for taking the time to explain!!! That video seems to be exactly what is happening! I never used to have that issue but I wonder if I have got too used to the 4 weight and super tight loops and tiny DHE's and now that I am opening things up a bit the tracking has gone to pot! The weight of the head, I presume, would encourage any faults to manifest themselves?

Had to laugh at the second drawing, the fly is just about to scale!

« **Reply #6 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:34 »

what's really cool with this video and how explains/demonstrates the dangle effect is that it completely disproves the commonly accepted rule that states that the line always follows the rod tip.

« **Reply #7 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:35 »

Hamish, I would love to get up your way, especially on a loch with carp

Seriously though, I need to head your way as the Pike should be at the end of spawning soon and I would like to get on a couple of the Conon lochs....with a tube!

« **Reply #8 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:36 »

Quote from: Marc Fauvet on 14/04/2015 at 13:34

it completely disproves the commonly accepted rule that states that the line always follows the rod tip.

Video me and I can assure tou that you will get footage of the line doing everything BUT follow the rod tip

« **Reply #9 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:38 »

Quote from: Rob on 14/04/2015 at 13:33

The weight of the head, I presume, would encourage any faults to manifest themselves?

Had to laugh at the second drawing, the fly is just about to scale!

for the same line wt rating, sink tips and sinking lines aren't heavier, they just go faster in the air than floating lines as they're thinner. thus the typical 'kick' that's the result of two different densities (floating/sinking).

and yes, the fly is the streamer you posted recently !

glad to help,
marc

« **Reply #10 on:** 14/04/2015 at 13:40 »

Its a floating sniper I am struggling with just now. Very thick and also ridged, and I do wonder if the ridges "catch the air" when its unfurling and that's why I am not getting a good turnover. When I switch to a Rio Outbound intermediate, no problems.

« **Reply #11 on:** 14/04/2015 at 14:11 »

Hi Rob

Are you used to the standard Outbound or the OB shorts?

The Sniper seems to have a much shorter head than the std. OB (28ft vs 37ft). Notwithstanding the tracking issues you have (ouch!), short headed lines can be tough to get a good turnover with - especially into any kind of breeze.

I've not used the snipers so can't speak directly to those lines, but some things that can help with short heads are:

1) Slipping a couple to five feet of extra running line into the last backcast
2) make the final delivery with a long/late/smooth haul
3) work on release timing. This is related to the haul length, but you might find hanging on an extra split-second can smooth turnover a lot.

Might work.

Other than that, see Hamish!

W.

« **Reply #12 on:** 14/04/2015 at 14:51 »

Quote from: Will on 14/04/2015 at 14:11

1) Slipping a couple to five feet of extra running line into the last backcast
2) make the final delivery with a long/late/smooth haul
3) work on release timing. This is related to the haul length, but you might find hanging on an extra split-second can smooth turnover a lot.

all of the above !

also, i'm guessing that on the final shoot you're 'throwing' the line behind you ?
since pike fishing usually doesn't involve full line casts, you could try letting the running line slide through your thumb and index finger of the line hand like this-

line still shoots but it's slowed down a bit and greatly improves turnover.
(i'd still go see Hamish

)
cheers,
marc

« **Reply #13 on:** 14/04/2015 at 15:06 »

No Idea what weight leader you are using but I would try a slightly heavier leader or a slightly stiffer one I had a toothy critter leader and I cut it shorter before I joined a wire tip, It made a difference , I use an Airflo Delta 7/8,with a WF 8 floater easgach 1

« **Reply #14 on:** 14/04/2015 at 16:19 »

Rob, this other video by Aitor is another view of the curved-end issue.
the thing to keep in mind is that on the reversal stroke, the line end will go back 180° to where it was placed and not follow the rod tip's path till much further on in the cast.
our goal is to not put it at that angle in the first place ! (easier said than done...

)

« **Reply #15 on:** 14/04/2015 at 18:57 »

Rob,

One other thing to think about is controlling drop and maintaining tension. If you open the arc without increasing tip height on the drift it will lead to fly coming through low on FC. If you then also cant rod off to the side a little as any sensible person does if they are afraid of being clattered by the fly then you will almost certainly get hit. If you are hitting the rod it could either be tracking or a major tail. The drift thing is far easier to demonstrate than to put down on paper.

Those lines are not a patch on the OB in any way other than durability.

Cheers

Ben

« **Reply #16 on:** 14/04/2015 at 21:10 »

I don't think you could ask for better advice Rob, it's nailed in those replies. Offer for a session stands, I might know a loch or two worthy of the effort

I'd like to see you using both lines, I've not tried a sniper but as Will has pointed out it's shorter than OB short.... and that's short.

H

« **Reply #17 on:** 15/04/2015 at 07:53 »

Morning All!

What can I say, thank you for the help!

Progress update...I went home last night after watching Marc's video he posted and things have drastically improved. I think I got into the habit of watching the water when dry fly fishing and not worrying what my back cast was doing so grabbing the heavy set up meant that the back cast was having much more "influence" on the forward cast as it was starting out wrong.

Actually taking time to watch the back cast I could see I was throwing off to the side a little. A bit of thought and concentration and things came together and distance improved without extra effort. Presumably because the rod is now unloading in a straight line?

To answer some of the other questions....

It is the standard Outbounds, not the Shorts.

Leader wise I use a 7ft salmon poly leader, 2 feet of 25lb mono and a trace...however, looking at the Scandi anglers, they are using 5 feet of 30lb mono, so I will try that. I doubt 12-14" flies will "turn over" with a leader, more like "continue to fly past the tip".

I do tend to slip a few extra feet on the last back cast...habit. Works well with the Outbounds, works not to bad with the Sniper.

I do tend to use a late haul on the heavier gear. Again, habit I think.

I played around with release timing (hard to change habits!) and I am no longer getting a collapse at the end of the cast

Instead I am getting the loop open but lay down straight, so a little more work required.

I have found the ridged Sniper does not shoot as well as the Outbound and the running line is twice as thick so there is a bit of drag already. I did not try letting the running line shoot through my fingers, but I will try that tonight. It is certainly something I do with my Sea Trout 7 weight shooting heads with a mono running line, so worth trying.

Ben,
the reason I went for the Snipers is because there were lots of people raving about them on the PFFA site. (Outbounds also get a thumbs up). I was lead to believe the Sniper could handle the bigger flies, and they certainly do compared to the Cortland "Pike Line" I was using for a floater, but, they are not a pleasant line to use at all. My Di7 is a standard 40+ and that's a nicer line to shoot as the running line is far thinner and it just flies. The Snipers seem to load the rod but "hang back" on the shoot...as if you are casting into the wind. It is hard to explain.

The other reason for the Snipers was cost to tell the truth. I got a floater and a Di3 for £55. I could not get a single outbound for that....although my Intermediate Outbound is still my most used line

« **Reply #18 on:** 15/04/2015 at 18:07 »

I've got a sniper Di3 #8 that I have used for Sea trout in the sea. Think the RL is too heavy for the length of the head, it does hold it back and causes it to turn over quite quick unless it is very carefully managed, the upside is that it will assist with turnover of nastier flies. Make sure you are not stopping the haul for delivery and then thinking about letting go of the line. Make the final haul late and fast, open your fingers and continue the hand through. Late release with lines of that type doesn't work so well, hauling through RSP 1 is definitely bad.

Cheers

Ben

« **Reply #19 on:** 16/04/2015 at 07:33 »

I was out last night with a rather sweet Sage XP #3 that Sandy is very familiar with. Using a Joan Wulff TT #4 it was like casting silk onto cotton wool compared to the Sniper!

« **Reply #20 on:** 16/04/2015 at 10:43 »

So, another problem solved....the reason I am not casting an entire Sniper is because it is 120' long!! The Outbound is 100' and castable to the backing.

This would explain why I still have 15-20 feet of line on the spool!!! Feeling happier now!

My god I really should RTFM!!!