Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Mike Barrio on 15/05/2009 at 21:32
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A cracking piece of "slow Mo" taken by Mike H :z16
http://vimeo.com/4663563
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Cool :cool:
I can now see what it is that I've been doing all these years, 'tis a wee bit odd right enough...... but it works :wink
Work to be done on timing, the haul and tracking methinks - it's all good :z16
Roll on 'loops Scotland next year and the next outcasts gathering :z18
Hamish :z3
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I like this slow mo camera thing, fascinating to watch what the line is doing in the rings.
As well as watching the body movements, that may cost you something in efficiency.
I think we should all be given this treatment, i'd love to see what i'm doing in this way too :z16
They were rather nice results too, Mr Y :wink
Nice one, especially beating our flexible friend :z4 :z4 (no pun there honest :z7)
Cool :z12
Sandy
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Hi,
Love the slowmotion video - could do with one to check out my rubbish casting !
Watching the video started me thinking about stances for fly fishing...standing right foot forward, casting righthanded and looking over one's shoulder at the backcast looks extremely awkward to do and really quite uncomfortable.
The closed stance seems to be traditional and many use the open stance but I really can't think of any other 'throwing or striking' sport in which the leg on the throwing arm side is extended forward - it is usually the other way around with the leg - opposite the 'throwing or striking hand' extended forward: throwing a cricket ball, playing a stroke in tennis; badminton etc,etc.
Anyone got any thoughts on this ?
Nigel
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There's certainly a case for changing stance, it has been suggested to me as it should help lengthening my overall 'stroke'.
However, it's very hard trying to change these things around after some 25 years with a fly rod in my hand :oops
A fair point though, it would make sense to have the left foot forward (in my case) and going from there :z16
Hamish :z3
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Hi Hamish,
I'm not saying you should change your stance or that it is wrong (who am I to give advice !!!!) .....just wondering if anyone knows what the rationale is for casting hand foot forward (if you know what I mean !) There must be one.
In much of the flycasting literature I have read there is lots of stuff about the various phases of the various casts etc but relatively little discussion on stances.
If you do decide to try another stance, would be interested to know how you get on.
Take care,
Nigel
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I cast right handed with my left foot forward..because it is comfortable. It allows a very long stroke which I find I ned with the 9 and 10 weights and allows easy shooting of the line on the back cast to minimise false casts.
With lighter outfits such as the 3 weight I seem to naturally face the water more. Probably because I dont need to shoot line on the back cast or apply as much stroke to get the line moving.
I have regularly tried the "hamish" stance..so to speak, but I find it difficult...
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ok how do I link one of Mike's clips. I want to get the side view of Paul and the clip of Stephan up.
The rationale for casting right foot forward - and its still being debated - is that it makes for better tracking and a longer cleaner haul. Some top class casters find those are enough to add quite a few feet to their distances. That's not to say they can't or don't switch but there's a good little list of guys who cast enviably well who use a version of the closed stance. They're getting a far longer stroke than I can with an open stance.
Rob is right that there are a lot of throwing events where the thrower plants the foot under their non-throwing side, however, they almost all follow with a transfer of weight so they end up on the foot under their casting arm - think of Javelin throwers dancing around after their throw. If you look at baseball the pitcher takes a stride and rotates into the throw - they don't have yards of line behind their hand - we do. If the rod curves through as it passes the body we don't get an accurate cast but it can also mean we're not directing as much force as possible in one direction and more to the point getting the line to go in one direction.
Same goes with casting sidearm - there can be some very good reasons for choosing that style (less stressful on ageing joints) but it'll tend to curve the stroke so the directed speed (momentum) of the line isn't always as focussed so it can inhibit max distances and it's less accurate.
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Magnus,
Playing the devil's advocate ('cos this is interesting ) Maybe there is a case for making the cast with the non casting side foot forward and then transferring the weight to end up with the casting side - foot forward ! (would scare the living daylights out of spectators etc and not really a goer when wading...but......)
Don't really get your point about javelin throwers / baseball pitchers not having yards of line behind them ? If the line is straight at the end of the backcast then the line behind the caster simply becomes effectively a long javelin ?
Nigel
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Playing the devil's advocate ('cos this is interesting ) Maybe there is a case for making the cast with the non casting side foot forward and then transferring the weight to end up with the casting side - foot forward ! (would scare the living daylights out of spectators etc and not really a goer when wading...but......)
Watch Ben cast..he does a nice wee dance as described by yourself :) Infact, I have seen him add an extra 10 yards on a cast...by shuffling forwards 10 yards ;)
By theory..and it is only theory, as the back cast straightens, you could take several running steps forward, like a javelin thrower, and launch your arm forward, thus increasing line speed...but I bet you would lose all the advantage by losing your tracking and stop.
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If the line is straight at the end of the backcast then the line behind the caster simply becomes effectively a long javelin ?
unfortunately a long, thin, flexible, Javelin that will flex and sag if the backcast is not perfect or the caster makes any sort of rotation/jerk on the forward cast
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Hi Nigel
Peter nails the reasons for that comparison. A pitcher or javelin thrower can curve the path of their hand up to release and so long at the thing is going in the right direction there isn't a problem. If we're false casting 30ft or more of line (sometimes far more) using a rod 9ft long to magnify the movements of our hands we have a problem if the path of the rod tip curves too much.
On the stepping thing. I know several guys who do something just like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvawA9BnIUE
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This is one version of the other side of the coin. Rajeff casting for distance. Open stance but his stroke is shorter than Rick Hartman's in the previous clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbAi6g4eEPA
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Hi Magnus,
Thanks for those video clips. Very interesting !
I think if I tried the Rick Hartman stance I would end up looking like a pretzel (LOL)
In the examples above, the difference is 'chalk and cheese" yet, they both work.
I suppose that is what makes fly fishing so fascinating - there really is no "answer" just a fresh set of questions !
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
On another site I'm involved in a discussion about casting style, more exactly about a distinction between style and substance of casting. Roughly, the idea is that underpinning all practical functional casting we all need to do the same and the physics and fundamental mechanics are the same. Among casting teachers there is also a debate about teaching a 'style' of casting. Most casting instructors try not to impose a style, their style, on their clients. (The idea is tall thin instructor Jim teaching short fat Bob - Jim's casting is about long flowing movement - Bob has shorter arms, shorter levers. What's makes the best of Jim's physique may not be ideal for Bob.)
The guys in those clips are among the very best light line distance casters. Rajeff is a champion tournament caster, with heavy single handed rods. Hartman really opened the eyes of some top class casters, his style has been very influential over the past few years. In a sense they represent the extremes they way they cast. Both are throwing #5 lines in those clips but the way they do it is very different if you look at the details - lots to be tried out.
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Magnus,
With a WF 7 wt, busting a gut, the best I can do on a regular basis is 25 yards......how do they do it ?????
Nigel
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Magnus,
With a WF 7 wt, busting a gut, the best I can do on a regular basis is 25 yards......how do they do it ?????
Nigel
Thats ya problem...if you are "busting a gut" you are using too much power and not enough timing. I think it was on the Sexyloops site that the instructor keeps preaching to reduce the power...and then reduce even more.
Certainly Lefty Kreh, who is now in his 80's, can put out a full line and make it look soooo easy...and thats with just the top section. On your tube there is a chap doing it with no rod at all! :shock :shock :shock
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Hi Rob,
I hear what you are saying...I have tried timing / stance / more power / less power / aim high / aim low / wrist snaps / no wrist snaps / feeding the line after shooting through a'ring' made with my fingers - and guess what......25 yards and that's it !
Would love to see that video of a guy casting with no rod...do you have a url ?
Nigel
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I will have a look for it...but I cant get access at work ;)
I think he was scandinavian....if that helps your search..lol.
Have you thought of having a lesson? Even wee hints that Ben has given me when I have ben thrashing around with a demo rod has made a huge difference to my casting.
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Hi Nigel
25yds is perfectly respectable.
I'd go along with Rob on the timing issue. Reducing the effort and thinking about the tip path can help. Try to make the tip go in as straight a line as possible. You can even get fancy and try to make that straight line as long as possible.
Casting doesn't need to be fast and furious, if you think about how a car accelerates - stamp on the pedal you accelerate to 60 - ease the pedal down and you still reach 60. A smoother longer stroke means more control and until you reach your limits means easier distance.
I'd strongly recommend learning to haul. If you already double haul then the thing to ask is, are hauling effectively. You should not run out of haul before the rod comes straight and the line overtakes the rod. Its extremely hard to see that in real time but is not uncommon. The way to get that going is to try and match the haul to the speed of the rod, nothing short and sharp, far better long and smooth.
Hauling well allows you to 'carry' or false-cast more line. To make a 75ft cast I'd be carrying around 40ft outside the rod tip when I make the delivery cast. When I'm reaching for distance I am carrying 75ft of line trying to shoot as far as possible. Some of the really hot guys can carry an incredible length of line - 90ft and more. That means they have a LONG stroke and their tracking is good enough.
The other way to go farther is simply accept not carrying a long line and use a shorter heavier head - shooting head or a heavier WF line. The easy way to try it is use a line one size heavier. Yes it will feel a little strange, no it will not damage your rod. Get a larger mass to the same speed and you have more momentum = more distance.
As Rob says getting a lesson from a decent instructor can be a shortcut to making dramatic improvements.
If you are inclined and want to try video analysis, film yourself casting a post it on Youtube or somewhere and link to here.
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Hi Rob,
I found the video of the lad casting without a rod - amazing !!!!!!
Yes, I will be getting some lessons when I get home this year - was out this morning, after the 'grass carp' (or scrub carp in this case) in an ambient temperature of 45 Deg C. (I almost couldn't touch my rod it was so hot !!!!!) anyway, a small improvement on the overhead distance cast - 2 or 3 feet, but progress.
Out of interest, I am sure that the people living on my compound think that I am shall we say, slightly eccentric ! The other day an english woman was watching me from the nearby open air swimming pool. After a while she said "There aren't any fish here you know!" I replied that I knew that because I had already caught them all but that if she spotted any trout in the swimming pool she should let me know !
Nigel
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Hi Magnus,
Our posts crossed. Thank's for the offer regarding reviewing a video - I will try and get one done - problem is my wife is off tomorrow for a month to help look after our new grandson - so might be a while.
Regarding the 'carry' I was false casting and trying to carry more and more line but control became a bit difficult so I am now back to 10 yards of fly line outside the rod tip which feels more comfortable.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Do you double haul? taking it back to the length you can control is good. The way forwards is to try and make tighter (narrower) loops - that's tighter not faster. Then work on faster and still tight. Then bring it all together. Do that and you'll find you can carry more line.
These help build good basics:
http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/billgammelsguide.shtml
http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/adjustmentsonthefly.shtml
An FFF instructor has tried recording the whole of his method of teaching a novice how to double haul. Its long but very interesting if you are into that and have the time and patience. Starts here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHofBrTUORE - go to his pages for all the episodes.
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Hi Magnus,
With any luck, a video of me casting is attached (!?)
Weapon was a Shakespear Expedition 9' 6/7 wt, 7 piece travel rod with a WF #7 floating line. Had 10 yards of flyline out of the tip.
http://s581.photobucket.com/albums/ss252/nigelpreece/?action=view¤t=Overheadcasting30-5-09.flv (http://s581.photobucket.com/albums/ss252/nigelpreece/?action=view¤t=Overheadcasting30-5-09.flv)
Would be interested to hear your comments.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
Good clip. Great a lefty so this will always look awkward to me :z4
IMHO you have the basics, if you want to get more from it you need to work to tighten those. At the moment your stroke is big, long and strong for 30ft of line. Combined with a long strong haul the only thing(s) that says 30ft is you mentioned it and the tempo of your cast - the length of time you are waiting between strokes.
With 30ft of line there is no advantage to swaying the body as much as you do there. No need to change stance or to stop shifting your weight from one foot to the other - just not as much. When you cast a longer line that shift of weight will become more important.
It looks to me like your back cast is weaker than your forward cast. I'm guessing the loops are not narrow and the loop on your backcast is wider than the loop on your forward cast.
Looking at your hauls - you have a long haul going back and a short haul going forwards. My inclination would be to take you back to a simple stroke with that length of line, holding it trapped under the fingers of your rod hand. (ie NOT holding the line in your right hand.) You should be able to false cast that length of line with no problems. Go through the routine Bill describes here http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/adjustmentsonthefly.shtml
Start with a short line and consciously try to make your loops narrow, using as little force as possible - so the line just barely straightens. Then add power and keep the loop narrow. Then add a little line and do the same.
There are several ideas there. The casting stoke needs to change, to get bigger or smaller depending on both the length of line you are playing with and the force you are applying. With a fixed length of line the loops can be the same back and front. In calm conditions they should really be pretty symmetrical.
When that's in there, in your 'muscle memory', then adding the haul comes a lot easier. You should find you are using less rod if that makes sense. The haul makes things easier, tighter and faster - easier to get narrow loops.
If it's ok with you I'll invite a couple of other guys to comment?
Magnus
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Hi Guys,
Sorry, I got lost, my comp crashed a couple of weeks ago and I lost all my bookmarks etc, etc.
Nigel, Magnus has asked for comments so here goes, I have not read Magnus's advice to you (yet)
First off I am surprised you only have 30' or so out of the rod, from your cadence and timing I would have assumed maybe twice that, so, for 30' you are putting in far too much effort. If you had been casting 60' I would be saying nice casting btw. It's almost a shame your double haul is so nice 'cos I'm going to tell you to stop using it :shock. Go back a bit and just false cast (without hauling), just concentrate on popping nice loops with minimum effort, start at 30' then 35' then 40' etc, every time you increase the distance make sure you are casting nice loops consistantly. At somewhere around fifty feet you may start to struggle to keep nice loops, this is the time to add the DH, but only a little one, just enough to get nice loops again. I am tempted to say 'let the rod do the work' but Magnus will only try and convince you the rod doesn't do any anyway, so I won't. I like your rod hand, you don't use too much wrist, and you actually have a nice stroke, just too much of it for the amount of line you are casting. Back off the power and become one with your rod, don't try and dominate it, work with it. Relax your arm and grip so that you start to feel the cast. I know it sounds a bit Zen, but it works, if you let it.
Put another clip up in a few weeks so we can see how you are getting on.
Right, lets see what Magnus has to say :z6
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Hey, not bad, we agree on most things :z4.
I should have mentioned casting arc, thats this bit \/. Remember it's not fixed, it has to vary, thats to say the more line you are casting the wider the casting arc has to be, if you cast tailing loops your casting arc is too narrow for the amount of line being cast, if your loops are too wide then you need to narrow the casting arc a bit.
Mike
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Hi Guys,
My sincere thanks for your highly constructive criticism - it is appreciated. Critiques and advice at a range of 3,000 miles must be a first !!!! (LOL)
Back to the practice field, as you have both suggested and I will try for another video in about 3 weeks when the wife gets back from Qatar.
Thanks again, highly appreciated.
Nigel
p.s. If you think Scots trees are good at catching flies - you should see what date palms can do !!!!!!!!!!
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Hi Mike :z16
Earlier in the thread, Magnus asked : "ok how do I link one of Mike's clips. I want to get the side view of Paul and the clip of Stephan up."
I wasn't sure about putting your videos on here without asking .......... Is it OK with you? I was confident you'd be happy with Hamish's one though :wink
Cheers
Mike
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Mike, everything I put up is there to be shared, so help yourself :z16
Mike
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ok how do I link one of Mike's clips. I want to get the side view of Paul and the clip of Stephan up.
Hi Magnus
The side clip of Paul .......
http://vimeo.com/4747753
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ok how do I link one of Mike's clips. I want to get the side view of Paul and the clip of Stephan up.
Hi Magnus
The clip of Stefan .......
http://vimeo.com/4796047
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.......... and there is one of you Magnus :z16
http://vimeo.com/4744859
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Mike didn't take one of me ..... I wonder why, could have used it for fault analysis :z4 :z4 :z4
Cheers
Mike
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Hi guys!
It's been a long time since I visited your board Mike. Got to post now, since that clip you have of me is a bloody disaster, embarrasing as hell. :z6
Here is one a bit better:
http://www.flycasting.chipmonk.se/sideview.avi
77 megs
Best Regards
Stefan
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Hi Stefan :z16
Great to hear from you :cool:
I'm having problems with the link :oops it opens a blank page in a new window and windows media player at the same time ...... but there is nothing to watch???
Aha ..... I just needed to be patient, it has loaded in the media player now :oops
Excellent, very nice indeed, the side views always look better! :z7
Best wishes
Mike
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Hi Mike!
Thanks!!
It's been a hectic season. Fished and practised my casting like mad. Now the weather is beginning to get grim so, more time for the boards!!! :grin
We start practising indoors soon. How about you guys? Still fishing with dries I suppose :z7
Best regards
Stefan
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Yes Stefan, just bigger dries :z4
It has been a busy year and it just seems like yesterday that you were here.
(http://www.fishingthefly.co.uk/zloopshaddob.jpg)
Best wishes
Mike
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Hi Mike!
That was a nice day, thanks again for having us!
I hope there will be a Scots Meet next spring too.
What happened to that nefarious tackle reviewer btw, Magnum PI. I have something to send him here but no address.
Bes regards
Stefan