[Mike Barrio]

Hi folks

I love roll casting on the river

But I'm not confident that I'm "doing it right"

What are the most important basic points that help us to get it right? If we want to carry out a good roll, snake or spey cast with a single handed fly rod, what forms the basis of a good cast and will help us to enjoy our casting technique?

Best wishes
Mike

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Mike,

In general terms, what makes a good roll or Spey cast is minmal anchor that is straight and in line with your intended target, important too that the D loop is in line.

It is much easier to demonstrate than describe but here goes (assumes neutral wind and no heavy current with a floating line)......

Raise the rod tip to approx eye level then cant the rod to about 30 degrees from the vertical and draw the line back into a D loop.  The line should be straight as it is coming back towards you, when the end of the line and leader has stopped moving, you have lifted as much line as possible from the water into the D.  Your hand should be about level with your ear and your wrist should be cocked at about 45 degrees, about a 4 finger gap between the rod butt and your wrist.

The delivery should go something like, working form the above position, make a lift up and back into the D loop and then come forward by "pushing" the rod forwards towards your target whilst maintaining the angle between rod butt & wrist, push the rod forwards using the straight flyline on the water as a guide, you will be leading with you elbow and have a light grip on the rod.
When you effectively run out of arm and cannot push forwards any further, rotate the rod sharply and give the grip a squeeze immediately pushing the tip up into the forward loop, stop high, this should gve you a tight loop.

Cheers

Ben

[Mike Barrio]

Thanks Ben

Now all I need, is for this ice to go away so I can give it a go!

Cheers
Mike

[Iain Goolager]

Maybe it's just me (Mr Pedantic?) but that's the type of description that is very helpfull when trying to master something like this.

It's obviously important to watch someone experienced/qualified perform the cast and then have that person watch you BUT when you're left to your own devices and the precise information is only half or vaguely memorable then it's easy to slip into bad ways.

I think that when you have a lesson (in any discipline) your performance generally improves which leads to heightened confidence and, I think, often a reduction in focus on basic technique - even Tiger Woods has to take regular lessons. Actually having a concise step by step which is easy to understand and can be printed out and emulated on the field/water is a hit.

I'm not explaining myself very well !?!.....what I'm angling at is when you know 100% where everything should be at any given stage in a cast (leader, fly, rod tip, feet, wrist, line belly, elbow, etc. ) then you are well on your way to getting it right.

I think I'm not a bad roll caster but there are a couple of points in Bens post that I'm keen to try.

Iain

[Paul Rankine]

Hi All,
         I would just add.

 Thumb on top .

From  AAPGAI, and I agree .

"Try to make the cast slightly inside the lay of the line on the water as this will prevent any sort of cross over of the loop with the line. (You can always move the rod out of the way too.)

The faster you move the rod tip and the more abrupt you can make the stop on the forward delivery the better the cast will be. A combination of controlled forearm movement and a sharp wrist snap are the elements which create the tip speed."

The Americans have a phrase called "Describing the D" which simply means that they draw a D shape with their rod tip which gives a good mental picture of the path the rod tip should follow.

Last, try to keep the whole thing as one flowing movement.

Hope this helps.

Paul.

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Paul,

Cheers, thumb on top is right, palm on top or a cradle grip works well too, cant get the last to work to well due to a long standing hand injury, it works but it hurts 

Interesting quesion for you.....  can you make the roll cast outside of the line?

Cheers

Ben

[Paul Rankine]

Hi Ben,
           

Interesting quesion for you.....  can you make the roll cast outside of the line?

Yes , with care !  I remember that this was one of Ken Mouter's questions ( yes, I really am that old !) , during one of the Largs SGAIC assesment days many moons ago. He asked "what is the maximum angle you can alter the line through in a roll cast " ?  A good question , indeed .

Back in the pub  I rather nonchalently proffered "Oh , about 90 degrees should,nt be a problem" .

This received a frown from Ken !  However, it was,nt all that hard to achieve on the lawn the next day .
But I think that we are all (or shoud be ?) considerably more mobile in our body movements nowadays than we were then , particularly with roll and Spey casts ?

Interesting to hear what others think .

Good question.

Paul.

[Magnus Angus]

Interesting Ben, Paul

With a static roll I can turn to some sort of the angle inside but outside....hmm...only if the line on the water is short or on a hard surface? With a static roll on water I think I can make some small change in angle but nowhere near 90 degree - assuming the anchored line slides back on the water it's pointing in the direction that's most natural for the cast, turn the stroke away from that angle and, casting on water, the anchor kills the line unless the anchor is absolutely minimal.
The whole point of the first bit in any Spey cast is to get the anchor pointing in the right direction - thats; what separates it from a static roll or a jump roll.

[Ben Dixon]

Interesting Ben, Paul

With a static roll I can turn to some sort of the angle inside but outside....hmm...only if the line on the water is short or on a hard surface? With a static roll on water I think I can make some small change in angle but nowhere near 90 degree - assuming the anchored line slides back on the water it's pointing in the direction that's most natural for the cast, turn the stroke away from that angle and, casting on water, the anchor kills the line unless the anchor is absolutely minimal.
The whole point of the first bit in any Spey cast is to get the anchor pointing in the right direction - thats; what separates it from a static roll or a jump roll.

Magnus,

All correct of course and I am not talking about a Spey where the anchor should always be aligned with the target, talking about casting outside of the D loop & anchor direction on a static roll and, to nowhere near 90 degrees!!  It is perfectly possible to cast outside of the D loop if the delivery is sufficiently canted over, not a particularly efficient cast but can be useful at times.  Not played with it that much, if Sunday is O.K weather wise I may try and push it 

Cheers

Ben

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Ben

Re: "assuming the anchored line slides back on the water it's pointing in the direction that's most natural for the cast, turn the stroke away from that angle and, casting on water, the anchor kills the line unless the anchor is absolutely minimal"

This could be where I often go wrong. I think I look at and try to cast at "the target", rather than following the most natural direction for the cast from the anchor?

Cheers
Mike

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Mike, are you talking jump rolls or static rolls here?

I very rarely use a static roll when trout fishing other than to straighten line, lift a sunk tip or fly or as a pick up when short line dry or nymph fishing.  Providing that you are not working a long length of line then you can just dump the line in the general direction of the target and then set up a D that is in line with the target and deliver from there, that is essentially what a double Spey accomplishes.

When I was talking about casting outside of the line I should have been more clear that attempting to deliver to a target not 180 degrees to the D & anchor is rather inefficient and is not recommended, however, it is possible and it is a useful trick to have up your sleeve just in case you ever need to do it in a fishing situation (quite unlikely!)


Cheers

Ben

[Magnus Angus]

Any of you guys tried any of the Skagit casts? Most are simply versions of conventional Spey casts and most of the more modern casts, Snake etc, but the Perry Poke is a technique that was first codified byr the Skagit guys in the US - very neat - http://www.bordergameangling.co.uk/Template%20Pages%20for%20new%20links/ThePerryPoke.htm and if you get into it, that leads on to a cast first written up in NZed the Tongariro Roll.

[Ben Dixon]

Nice Vid Magnum,

Not a cast I have really played about with as all descriptions I have come across have varied hugely and all video has been a bit poor.  Seems very similar to a Perry Poke or a Wombat without the snap reposition.  Forecast is good tomorrow so will take a long lunch and go have a play 

Cheers

Ben

[Mike Barrio]

Nice Vid Magnum,

Not a cast I have really played about with as all descriptions I have come across have varied hugely and all video has been a bit poor.  Seems very similar to a Perry Poke or a Wombat without the snap reposition.  Forecast is good tomorrow so will take a long lunch and go have a play 

Cheers

Ben

So ...... Did you play? How did it go?

Cheers
Mike

[Ben Dixon]

It was fun 

Ben

[Stefan Siikavaara]

Hi all!

Nice thread!

Do you guys play around with pullback in the rollcast? It's a great trick, especially for those very tight quarters.

Best regards
Stefan

[Mike Barrio]

Hi all!

Nice thread!

Do you guys play around with pullback in the rollcast? It's a great trick, especially for those very tight quarters.

Best regards
Stefan

Hi Stefan

I was hoping Ben or Magnus would reply to this
Now I have to look silly and ask what "pullback" is?

Best wishes
Mike

[Stefan Siikavaara]

Hi Mike!

Oh no, there is nothing silly about that question. There was once a +80 page thread about it on Loops and I think nothing really conclusive came out of that, except that my and I suspect many others rollcasting got better of course.   

Ok, itīs as simple as it sounds but like all motorical things it can take a bit of experimenting and practice to get to work. Itīs just about pulling back the rod tip slightly after stopping it.

Here is a video of a guy doing it heavily with a DH-rod. Look at how he uses his hands and the rod during and after the stop. Check the slowmos especially. Thatīs a pullback stop. It goes by other names of course but pullback is a simple, straight to the point and descriptive term that works for me.

http://www.bazzflyfishing.com/Website/Videos/Scandispey.html

Well, please donīt ask me how it exactly works and about the physic behind it. It seems to help accelerate the line and reduce the counterflex. Loops often get a bit tighter and faster using it, and if you play around you can make long line rollcasts with a smaller d-loop using it.

As for being related to the basics of the rollcast. I teach this to beginners and find that even if they donīt get the actual pullback working at once they do get a better loop formation and learn to stop the rod tip better in shorter time.

Best regards
Stefan

[Magnus Angus]

Just say NO to Whiplash - {a shiny black leather-clad whip-weilding emoticon is needed here}

Yes I do use pullback - particularly with DH rods - not my 'natural' rod type.

Spolek talked about it in one of his articles - line is being stripped out of the moving leg of the loop, so reducing the mass and accelerating the line, the principle is conservation of energy. I think there is speculation that it can also increase the KE of the fly-leg of the line slightly - not so sure about that one. For most anglers I think they come across the effect more commonly when they feather the running line or pinch the line and stop a shoot to force turnover. What it can't do is help you make longer casts.

[Mike Barrio]

Hi Stefan

Watched the video a few times and I've got the idea thanks. I'll experiment with it on my trout rod

Best wishes
Mike

[Stefan Siikavaara]

Hi Magnus!

What it can't do is help you make longer casts

You mean, longer max distance cast right?    And to that I do agree until I see someone able to do it. I am pretty sure it adds some distance to my static rollcast and to the switch though.

Here is friend of mine pullback-casting overhand. He reaches very high line speed and he can cast far as hell. But I never seen him use it for the delivery. http://flycasting.chipmonk.se/simonsvan_linespeed.MPG

Best regards
Stefan

[Magnus Angus]

Hi Stefan

Brrrr - I see the movement you mean. Looks like the right motion, comes after the stop but slightly hard to say what it's doing to the line. As with so much of this stuff its really hard to say exactly what's happening - more film we need more film  I'd add more slow motion film. I'm gradually talking myself into getting one of those Casio cameras Lasse has - Mike's getting one as a birthday present (not from me you understand.)

[Stefan Siikavaara]

Hi Magnus!

Brrrr -

 

Yes, thatīs the kind of dedication it takes to keep a good level on ones casting in this country. Itīs bloody ice age half the year. 

I am planning on getting one of those cams aswell Lasses shots are amazing.

Simons loops morph to a point when he pulls back. He pulls back ever so slighty most of the time but on longer carries he has got the most distinctive and powerful pullback I have seen so far. Those lasts two casts give you a hint on it. Some people say it looks strange but then they see his loops and forget to mention it. 

Best regards
Stefan
   

[Mike Barrio]

That looks like almost "bouncing" at the stop to me, which would possibly make the stop more pronounced? ..... or the effect the stop has on the rod more pronounced?

Cheers
Mike

[Stefan Siikavaara]

Hi Mike!

Yes, thatīs a good description. He is really bouncing the rod. It happens after the stop though. It pulls the lower leg of the loop back. The loop is outbound before that happens I think.

That guy started casting at the age of 6 btw. 

Best regards
Stefan