Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #25 on: 09/12/2017 at 09:11 »
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.

As is always the way, this thread has moved across a spectrum of issues that impact - or are perceived to impact - on the original subject which is Marine Scotland's (apparent) unwillingness to engage with its stakeholders. That needs to be fully addressed.

When it comes to the fish farming debate I have always stated (not necessarily in these words, but the same message) that in its current form it is incredibly environmentally destructive and that alternate methods of farming needed to be explored in order for the industry to remain.  Those technologies (largely pump ashore as the alternate) have actually existed for 40 years so it's good to hear that this is now being more fully explored. But related though it is, it's a separate discussion.

As fas as the bit of the post that I've quoted Peter, I have never known you to stop engaging in debate when you have an informed position and something to say. So you should not stop adding to the discussion, you're not wasting time, and by and large most folk are pretty rational souls whose opinions are open to change with informed discussion based on facts.

Never give up :! Never surrender :!

H :cool:

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #26 on: 09/12/2017 at 16:51 »
It would make sense - if it were true and this is why I broke my self made rule not to discuss fish farming with rod fishermen.
This thread started on what criteria the SG used to classify the salmon rivers of our fair country and it was highlighted, by many, they appeared to be ignorant of what was believed to be true by the river users. Fair argument and I have no problem with that, indeed I find it interesting as one who has negotiated with SG on fishing matters. Although mainly shellfish orientated I was on the committee which pushed through legislation to allow shooting of predator seals in river mouths and often tussled with Prof. Ian Boyd about actual seal numbers compared to reported seal numbers. Therein lies a probable more productive discussion on what happens to all the salmon - do you know how much fish a seal eats and do you know how many more seals surround the SCOTTISH coast since they have been protected?
The starting wage for an entrant into any of the large salmon producing companies is £19k at aged 18 or over, rising to £23k within 3 years.  There is a new onshore £90 million installation being built on Skye and recruiting is now starting to fill the 55 initial positions. Gael Force Marine, Kishorn Fairwinds Engineering and many other companies who supply the fishing industry would not survive without the money invested by whoever involved in fish farming. It is not all good - as the rod fishing fraternity when seen from outside by other land and water users. Salmon farming has many faults but without it the west coast of the Highlands would be a much poorer place. Believe me - I really DO know - I have spent over 30 years working with tourism, fishing, community project financing, fish farming, and scallop diving.
I can already hear Mr Roxburgh howling in the background and probably calls for me to be struck off the forum but what REALLY annoys me is when people who know a lot about their own interests is them waving their arms about to grab hold of the biggest easiest target when things get rough - no matter the cost!
I will stop as really, I know I'm wasting time, people's minds are already made up regardless of actual fact.
   Now Peter , here's me wondering who this Mr Roxburgh is, then I thought he may be referring to me, I might think about getting you off for bad spelling , you must remember I worked in fish farming and gillying , and 15 years inshore fishing , I was a founder member of the association that you eventually worked for, I gave up howling a long time ago, just remember that you aren't the only one with experience of the fields you mention, Oh, I also worked in tourism  working for SNH in the information centre, after 48 years living and working here , I probably have as much right as you , to have an opinion,
salmon farming was, at the beginning a saviour to a lot of local communities , but, as I can add up, there wasn't the number  of people working in fish farming as was bandied about, even with 20 people per site through out Scotland it doesn't come to the numbers given by some, remember I visited most of these sites delivering smolts up to Shetland and the outer isles and down to Loch Fyne , now  a lot of these sites have cut back on personnel by as much as 60%, so only valuable to the People who actually work there,
as for Gillying, I know it was seasonal , but the anglers that came brought families and they went out into the country side and spent money locally, so the money went round. Now there are few anglers coming to the likes of the Loch Maree Hotel, so these places are struggling, as well as the fish the anglers came for,  As I mentioned previously in a post, we had seals, Poachers , etc. but we still had fish to catch, until the advent of upper loch Salmon farming then it went down hill, notice Peter, I am not Howling just stating a few facts as I  have seen them ,now my rant is over ,  just spell my name right the next time you make a criticism,  cheers Derek ROXBOROUGH  :X2

Ivor Duffus

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #27 on: 09/12/2017 at 19:28 »
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #28 on: 09/12/2017 at 19:54 »
Speed up the closed containment for fish farming  that will stop all bickering lol  :z4. Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.
    sounds Like a nice Idea , but what happens to the effluent, the hatchery I worked for had an Industrial effluent discharge consent about the same as a small town, there are a lot of solids in the effluent ,when the uneaten feed is discharged, plus fish faeces, Ok no sea lice,a big plus, but a build up of solids at the outlet may pose other problems, a deepwater system away from sea lochs with  a reasonable movement of water may also be another way forward, every thing flushed away with the current  :z13  Derek Roxborough

Hamish Young

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #29 on: 09/12/2017 at 20:00 »
Joking aside it will end all doubt to the damage caused by fish farming.

Well yes... but sadly mostly no  :z6 Other than the clean up operation that we can't rely on nature to sort out for us don't forget that something like three quarters of all UK smolt production is in cages across the lochs of Scotland. Before that, and as Derek has observed, even the well run hatcheries (producing pre-smolts) with decent settlement systems aren't exactly environmentally friendly.
 So even if the pump ashore contained salmon farms work, we still have another element to be resolved surrounding the production of Smolts.
With that addressed ensuring that the pump ashore Salmon farms have decent settlement ponds and waste treatment systems will be the next thing... and so on.
It's not that my glass is half empty - genuinely, news that pump ashore salmon farms are (at last :!) becoming a reality means my glass is half full - but we can't forget the damage that smolt production is having on a separate part of the ecosystem and it will be one of the next battles.

:z10

Ivor Duffus

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #30 on: 09/12/2017 at 20:19 »
Yes indeed good point you still have the crap to deal with  :z16. But am guessing closed containment is still 10 years down the line so hopefully  solutions will be found.

then again it would be no surprise if nothing at all  happens in Scotland and salmon farming expands offshore  :mad :mad

Bob Mitchell

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #31 on: 10/12/2017 at 10:18 »
Can not see closed containment being 100% working for us.  That would mean that sites could be set up anywhere in the world and using Scottish eggs/smolts called "Scottish salmon" same idea as beef. [Our fore bearers took Loch Leven eggs all over the world]
The waste from the farms, someone will find a use for perhaps fertilizer for gardens/farming or something along those lines.
What ever happens we must keep the farms or the wild salmon will be completely killed off.
I know what over half a century of keeping ones eyes open has shown me.
Bob.


Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #33 on: 10/12/2017 at 16:06 »
any shore based system will have to have Industrial effluent discharge consent, the hatchery I worked at had 2 problems  , one was treatable with chloramine, this was Costia magnified by  the close confinement system , the second was Glochidiosis caused by the Pearl Mussels in the river , untreatable , now there is a Marine species of Costia , it may proliferate with the close confinement of the salmon ,  so more chemicals, the solids can be settled out in fresh water these would be useable on the land , but can the same be said when you have  salt in the mix?,some hatcheries used Anti Biotics in large quantities, some salmon farms used to used A/Bs as a profilactic.  According to the Times  today 22,000 tonnes of salmon died on Scottish salmon farms last year, 1/3 rd of that was on marine harvest farms, this salmon was used in Methane digesters to generate electricity , you would think after the years of experience these Salmon farmers have they would get it right, can we trust them with on shore systems?
  :z8  Derek Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #34 on: 11/12/2017 at 09:26 »
You have to ask whether any other industry 'gets away with' what the fish farming one does in terms of postitioning of the cages, sea lice, use of chemicals etc. In this day in age the answer is probably no. Other polluting industries have to smarten up their act - so why not fish farming ?

What i also dont get it why dont the 'Green' party step in ?

They hold the balance of power in Holyrood- without them the SNP are out on their ear.

 How can the 'Greens' think its OK to pollute the sea, impact wild salmon and also when i takes more fishmeal to produce an equivalent weight of farmed fish. How sustainable is that ?

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #35 on: 11/12/2017 at 12:02 »
how green are the "green" party? Derek  Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #36 on: 11/12/2017 at 21:45 »
Even the One Show got in on the act tonight investigating the salmon farming industry , particularly highlighting that 25% of farmed salmon die of disease or infestation

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #37 on: 11/12/2017 at 22:37 »
22,000 tons dead last year sent to anaerobic digester to make methane,  ??? Derek Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #38 on: 12/12/2017 at 09:39 »
they have the follow up tonight, speaking to the industry who will no doubt say 'we have it well under control'..

Great timing by the One Show as this will make a lot of people think twice about  buying smoked salmon at Christmas, hopefully..

what i found disgusting is that they could load a non-watertight lorry with dead and rotting fish and then drive it for 2 days through towns etc leaving a trail of stinking 'sludge'. Surely you are not allowed to do that ?

Bob Mitchell

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #39 on: 12/12/2017 at 10:23 »
As I said in the local paper the Green party want to be careful not to upset the S.N.P.
The fish farmers are holding the government to ransom like a lot of other multy million pound companies. If you make us obey all the laws then we will close and there will be thousands of jobs lost. Black mail works if you are big enough.
Bob.

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #40 on: 12/12/2017 at 12:28 »
 If you do the figures there aren't that many jobs actually on the farms now , the hatchery I worked had 7 staff now has 3, and the nearest sea site had 16 now has 6, Ok there are spin offs  such as transport and processing, but there was a rumour that there was vested interests in the Scottish Parliament, my take is that there are now a lot less jobs in the industry than there once  was, but the high heed yins still like their perks, and they have to keep the investors happy, but then I am a cynical git, :X2  Derek Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #41 on: 12/12/2017 at 12:51 »
As I said in the local paper the Green party want to be careful not to upset the S.N.P.
The fish farmers are holding the government to ransom like a lot of other multy million pound companies. If you make us obey all the laws then we will close and there will be thousands of jobs lost. Black mail works if you are big enough.
Bob.

The SNP need the Greens far more than the other way round Bob.

I honestly dont think that there are that many jobs in fish farming compared to those in 'wild fish' jobs - hotels, restaurants, bars, tackle shops, gillies you name it.

The SG should just call their bluff - lets face it where else will they go ? Nobody else really wants such a polluting industry.

I know 'big industry' can weild some degree of power but that has to be balanced in what they contribute to the economy. I really dont think the salmon farming industry comtributes much - maybe a few hundred jobs - lets even go wild and say 2000. This pales into insignificance when you look at say the oil industry that has lost many 10s of thousands, contributes millions to goverment coffers yet you dont see the governement suddenly  letting the oil industry cut corners and being allowed to pollute like the fish farming industry does....

the one show will be interesting again tonight. Shame countryfile do as 'tough ' an investigation as the one show seem to be able to do...

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #42 on: 12/12/2017 at 16:23 »
James , did you read my post?  :z18  Derek Roxborough

Bob Mitchell

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #43 on: 13/12/2017 at 09:18 »
Watched the bit on the One show last night.
In my view there was nothing  said that was new and I thought the presenter was very timid. He admitted that closed containment was many years away. Made out that they were now using wrasse to eat the sea lice which would solve the problem. Chemicals were just shrugged off by the fish farmer rep.
Agree that the S.N.P. need the Green party more than the other way around. To me this gives the "green party  "a stronger hand.
Still think that looking after the rivers and dealing with goosanders is the starting point.
When I started fishing my stretch of the River Earn there were vast shoals of Grayling turning the river grey at spawning time [May] Fishing in the evening it was like rain the parr feeding on the surface. Watching up to 70 goosanders flying upstream for a few years and the grayling/browns and parr have all mostly gone.
Bob.

Rob Brownfield

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #44 on: 13/12/2017 at 13:41 »
I know on the issue of Pacific Salmon the Scottish Government have washed their hands of it..saying to the Salmon boards "You deal with it".

My own view is that the SG is in a dilemma. It hates the thought of land and fishing rights being in the hands of the "privileged" or "tories"..because if you own land and fishing that's what you must be...apparently...and I don't think it can be seen to support "the privileged" salmon angler or fishing owners as that goes against the policies it is putting in place to ensure land and associated rights are "given to the public".  After all, little Billy Wallace off a council estate can't afford to go salmon fishing...so why should anyone else.

The Greens are behind the scenes, wanting a ban on angling. In their policies they clearly state "We shall extend the Animal Welfare Act to cover all fishing activities. "  This means that catching fish will be classed as wilfully injuring and tormenting an animal. The SG may just need their help and may just ban angling....I don't think its as far fetched as it may first seem.

But that's another dilemma for the SG. They support fish farming (despite failing to disclose the true figures of mortality and disease rates) yet the Greens want it banned. No conflict there then!

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #45 on: 13/12/2017 at 16:53 »
if the SNP are honest in the Implementation of the Wild Fish PROTECTION act then salmon farming should be first to go,  where is the sense in protecting the industry, and penalising sport fishermen,?Wasn't it the salmon Industry that was supposed to be the saviour of the wild salmon? after all angling through out the UK is a popular sport, enjoyed by millions and supporting  millions of jobs,  but the Likes of Gilpin Bradley would see it differently , he was collared, probably because the big producers didn't want to be seen as the villains, our club would like him to remove his derelict cage from our loch , it's breaking up and  leaving rubbish round the loch, but that is beside the point,an interesting comment on the programme was about Wrasse , that the farmed (bred) wrasse  didn't eat sealice? where the fishermen have been trapping wrasse for the farms  they are find other species are moving in,  Octopus for instance it just shows you cant do things like that with out some sort of Knock on effect,
  :z8  Derek Roxborough

James Laraway

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #46 on: 13/12/2017 at 21:29 »
That chap Gilpin did come across as not very nice, especially when they asked about salmon farming killing wild fish. You could see hear the aggression in his answer and voice....

Derek Roxborough

Re: Marine Scotland conservation measures - 2018
« Reply #47 on: 14/12/2017 at 21:47 »
his Father would hear no criticism of the industry , but your right about him , Derek Roxborough

 




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