Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Main Discussion Area => Topic started by: Rob Brownfield on 10/10/2008 at 16:16
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The video Mike posted inspired me to look on youtube for a few more casting vids..and a few interesting things came out of my search...and these are just observations..so dont shout at me...
Scandinavian casters are extremely technical and seem far more advanced than UK casters.
UK anglers only want distance and double hauls.
American casters sound impressive until you realise they are talking 40 feet not meters :wink
Japanese casters seem to love traditional spey casting.
Australian casters dont cast, they get the line out there somehow.
There are several different schools of thought on what makes a good cast...for example, at 83 years of age, Lefty Kreh can double haul a full 40 yards with what looks like the minimum of effort, even doing it with just the tip of the rod, yet Paul Arden says Lefty has no idea how to cast and is doing it all wrong!
Joan Wulff seems to be able to create the most amazing loops yet something does not look right with her casts.
Steve Radjeff..well..he is different again..and "totally awesome" if we where to use a saying from across the pond.
What hope do mear mortals have if the experts all do it different?
Have to say...I think I cast along the Lefty Kreh princible as you just cannot use your wrist and "clockface" method with 10 weights...well..I can't...Hamish might be able too though :)
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Rob
Now the whole world has been sorted, And agreed Steve Rajeff is a machine
Have a look at
Jason Borger and Stefan Siikavaara for some very pretty casting (just a couple whom do the technical thing at another level)
Sandy
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Both Guideline and Loop have some pretty impressive casters working for them who work on the techniques rather than the distance.....as can be seen on Youtube.
And both companies produce some of the best "fishing rods" out there.
A connection perhaps? :wink
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And you've learnt all that just by watching a few videos Rob! :z4 :z4 :z4
I'm not "shouting at you" ....... but somebody should :z7
Mike
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No Mike,
by having spent the last couple of years looking for the ultimate Pike rod so have been doing lots of casting and fishing with various rods on various lochs at various Pike fly events up and down the country. With that also came a few casts with various trout rods...
..and by listening to what folk such as Sandy, Hamish, yourself, Magnus etc have to say about the rods on this site and various others ...sooooooo......
.....thuuuuuuurp! :z7 :z7
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Hi Rob
To the best of my knowledge, I don't think I have met the casters from Guideline and Loop, or had the pleasure of sharing a casting session with them ........ so I'm afraid I'm not in a position to comment on whether or not they work on distance. ( but in my very humble opinion, any caster that reaches that sort of level would almost certainly be working on all aspects of their casting skills )
You can't honestly write sweeping statements like "Americans casters this", "UK anglers that", "Scandinavian casters such & such" etc ........... without expecting us (your mates) to have a bit of a laugh when we read it :z4
Best wishes
Mike
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Interesting topic - and observations there Rob :z16
I firmly believe that there are no right and wrongs if it works for you.... if you reach a level you're happy with then fair play. That's reflected to an extent in the different styles we all have although we all generally accept/understand that there are core principals that make a significant difference to how we could cast :wink
'Joe Average' can chuck out a line and is happy with what he does. He fishes a lot and doesn't want to improve because he's happy. Why should he :? He's not alone. But the desire to improve is often stimulated by frustration...... which leads you to:
........ the enthusiast (or is that nerd.... :z7) now I'm happy to be one of them :z3
I learnt the hard way this year that I had reached the limits of what I could do with a single handed rod my way and accepted that to improve - particularly with distance - then the way I cast needs to change, and that takes time and a lot of 'unlearning' bad habits.
I'm not at all sure that there's really all that much of a difference between the nations in terms of technique. Sure, there are differences stimulated by local conditions and equipment etc etc But :! I've seen video of Left Kreh casting and I've seen Paul Arden (and other exceeding fine casters) all doing there thing in the flesh. The common ground :?
Technique over effort :z16
So I don't subscribe to the postulation that the experts do it all differently - sure, there are differences in style but the core techniques are very similar if not identical in most ways. To this humble observer, anyway :oops
Are there casting rights and wrongs :? You bet your ass there are :! As one larger than life American I met this might have said faced with this question at the Sexyloops bash Mike, Sandy and I attended earlier this year.
We'll find some of them and get rid of most of them (I hope) via the "outcasts" - it promises to be an interesting time :z16
Hamish :z3
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Hi Hamish
"I firmly believe that there are no right and wrongs if it works for you" ....... I'm with you 100%. We all have our own casting styles, I guess partly because we are built differently. Watching and sharing what each of us do best, can only be a good thing and will hopefully help us to improve our own technique.
Best wishes
Mike
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Mike,
I wrote "these are just observations" and bolded the observations bit to show it was a bit of fun. :z18
Of course a caster that has amazing technique will more than likely be able to cast the socks of us mortals....what i was trying to get at is that whenever these companies post videos on there sites or youtube, its the techniques that are shown off....not the distance..as the yanks and brits do. I think it would be a foolish person that thinks a caster of such caliber could not and would not be capable of big distances.
So all in all, I was trying to spark some debate about the differnt aspects of casting from around the world.
I should have added.."And czechs cant cast more than 10 feet" :wink :z7 :z4
Hamish,
I agree with you regarding rights and wrongs, and core principles...many based on pure physics that cannot be changed no matter what we do. However, i do feel that different nations do things differently. The Scandinavians are into there Skaggit/underhand casts whilst the Brits are only just learning this style, while the Yanks have only really just taken onboard the Spey cast.
On the trout casting side of things I guess i am tainted by the casts I see by Joe Average here in the UK and then watch "experts" on various DVDs who are at the top of there game and therefore "showing off" there casting and thus showing the viewer the more interesting casts that you dont see every day.
Unfortuantly I doubt I will be going to any of the "Outcast" meets.
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Hi Rob
Re: "Unfortuantly I doubt I will be going to any of the "Outcast" meets" ...... That's a pity, as I think your expertise in casting large flies would have been very interesting to see and learn :z6
Cheers
Mike
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Hi Rob
Re: "Unfortuantly I doubt I will be going to any of the "Outcast" meets" ...... That's a pity, as I think your expertise in casting large flies would have been very interesting to see and learn :z6
Cheers
Mike
Ahem...I doubt it!!.."expertise" and "interesting"....
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In terms of casting a fly to a fish, there are a few elements that will make the cast either work, or fail or do something mediocre in between.
Think about what we are trying to achieve when waving a rod about, we are trying to bend the rod by accelerating it against the mass of the flyline, the bent rod has a stored potential energy which is then transferred to the line when rod straightens. For a "good" cast the line should be under tension all the way through the cast and power must be applied smoothly at the right time, the rod must be stopped in the direction the caster wishes the line to travel and the stop should be crisp to ensure a good transfer of energy to the line. The more the rod is forced to bend, the longer the stroke (movement of the rod tip between the stops) needs to be and the faster the rod can be rotated prior to the stop, the greater the line speed will be.
There are some seriously good distance casters in Scandinavia Rob and you should see Paul Arden throw presentation casts he does a shitload more than just distance :cool: The clips of the single handed speys look cool but those particular casts are not things Id use to fish with, certainly not with 3 flies but they make use of the basic principles, when the flyline anchors on the water and the D loop is formed, provided it is formed correctly the cast will go out the same no matter how many times it flies around your head pre anchor. Not really used underhand techniques until recently, I preferred full spey lines but in recent weeks have been more or less converted to shooting heads, particularly for sinkers, Ill bring a Skagit line along on Sunday if I make it up to Haddo.
Cheers
Ben
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I'm with Hamish.... "I firmly believe that there are no right and wrongs if it works for you.... if you reach a level you're happy with then fair play".
It's quite simple for me, if I wave my rod about & my fly hits the water & a fish grabs it.... I've done it right :z16, if however I wave my rod about & my fly ends up round my head or my boat partner ...I've got it wrong. ???
A lot of national differences refered to earlier are dictated by their natural circumstance, if you spend your life fishing 12ft wide streams in Tasmania who really cares if you can cast 40 yards. :z8
Alex
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Ahem...I doubt it!!.."expertise" and "interesting"....
:z8 Take it easy Rob, I'm being genuine here :z16
You have spoken about your fly rod design quite a bit lately ( for obvious reasons I know how much work goes in to a design project ) and I am very interested in seeing the rod and how your design works :cool:
The "Outcasts" is not about trout casting, it is about having fun ..... sharing, learning and improving all things fly casting. I will be very disappointed if we don't see folk coming along to future meets with a 15 foot salmon rod to try out, or whatever they fancy. Ask Sandy/Hamish/Ben what I made of an american saltwater rod that Rich brought to Dunkeld ....... not only could I not cast it as well as everybody else ....... I simply couldn't cast it at all :z4
So please come along and join in the fun :z3
Best wishes
Mike
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Ask Sandy/Hamish/Ben what I made of an american saltwater rod that Rich brought to Dunkeld ....... not only could I not cast it as well as everybody else ....... I simply couldn't cast it at all :z4
So please come along and join in the fun :z3
Best wishes
Mike
Personally I thought Rich's rod was an amazing casting tool - thankfully you wouldn't need to cast it all day!! I also thought the obstacle course was a really useful setup since it's more akin to a fishing situation than the pure distance situation. But I'd second Mikes invite to come along & have some fun. I'm sure we'll all learn from it - even the best of us.
Peter
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My casting is at best functionable, however once in a while I catch one right and I can feel the difference, when you hit the 40yd mark and the line is still trying to go .......!!. The distance thing is a difficult subject, it seems that some folks 25yds is about the same as others 30 !! If we are all going to get anally retentive about this technique over that one then we will travel in ever smaller circles and disapear up the said anus. The problem with most specialist forms of our sport is that they eventually divorce them selves from the origional purpose , just look at the extremes some of the fly dressers go to in"show flies" , super flies but would you fish with them? they are tied for their own sake. I have seen some sublime casters, and they can also fish, if anyone gets a chance to see sandy mcintosh on kinkell with a double hander in a tight spot or deep wading in the tay you will know what I mean, the cast is just part of his fishing. I also travel to some of the big french waters and have fished at extreme range on them, ok its fixed spool work but many of the principles are the same, compress the rod , release the weight under pressure. Now there are anglers out there who think they are hitting 120yds regularly, some are lucky to be doing the ton. They fool themselves , we all do to some extent. I remember Mike trying one of my reels and lines on one of his cane rods and being quite perplexed when the whole line flew out, now he could have assumed that it was a 30yd cast and said so but to his credit he said this line is short isnt it, he was right, but hey he had just cast a full line so that was a 30yarder wasnt it. Casting is just one part of our sport it is not the be all and end all if folk want to go down the path of casting for castings sake thats up to them, its not a path I fancy following. I will come along when i can and might bring the odd different rod for folk to play with, but thats what it will be , play. Anyone that wants ago with some very long range carp gear just say and I will sort it out, you need a big field by the way lol. so rant over and good luck to the idea. :grin :grin :grin
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Mikie,
What saltwater rod was it? Been playing with a 10 weight Sage Xi2..hate it!! lol. Yeah, with the wind behind me and a huge helping of luck I could put a full line out...but only a few times..very quickly I found my arm wanting and my casting suffering. Not a rod for me for all day casting of big flies.
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Not sure the make of the 12 wt but it fair shot a line, but only for a short time. But then it's designed to fish for short periods with long rets.
Just had a wee play with a 9wt Orvis helios at banchory, superb, if you didn't force it and let it do the work.
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I cant remeber what the 12wt was either But it was BLUE
I think it was a greys tampon rod, mind you that could be pretty sore :shock
Magnus should know!! he was using it with that shitty reel of his.
Was great fun to cast with.
Pity you wont be able to make it Rob, it would have been good to get to try some of your heavy weight gear, and learn a bit about Pike fly fishing first hand. Could swap some notes on rod design too, with the gear there so we could understand what we refer too and what feel is to you and me, might help with some of the debates :z7
All these different styles and rods etc is what made the 'Loops gathering such great day out.
I think once its up and running each of the days should have a " cast of the day " one that the experts can teach en-masse and one we can all practice. It wont take long to build up a selection of useful casts for those awkward fishing situations :z16
Casting and flys pretty much account for half the effort in fly fishing, surely that makes them an equal part in the whole experience, (whether you tie your own or not).
I think entomology helps too, and hopefully this years flytying challenges should help people get a handle on that too, to a small degree :z18
Watercraft is a huge part and essential if you want to get better. So what does does flyfishing boil down too? any mix of the above i suppose, how you mix them is up to you as long as it makes you happy :grin
Sandy
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I cant remember what the 12wt was either But it was BLUE
As I recall, it was a Greys rod that belonged to Magnus :wink
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Platinum XD ??? maybe??
I had a play with the 5 weight Helios today...not so sure with that one..but as Ben said..the line was horrible.
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The rod was a Greys Platinum XD with a tropical sharkskin line, rod was brutal but not hepled by the fact that the line would not lie straight, not designed for use in Scotland in early May :z4
The line on the Helios 5wt was an Expert Distance WF5, i dont really like the line but it is what everyone uses for distance stuff, I use it so I am on the same platform as other obsessives. It does go a long way but due to the taper it needs perfect tracking & timing otherwise it drops like nothing else and needs a huge carry to get it to go, it really is very unforgiving. Should try the same rod with a Snowbee or a wonderline long belly, totally different feel to it then.
Cheers
Ben
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Had a cast or 5 of a Platimum XD at Menteith with an Airflo Forty Plus Cold Saltwater Ridge...arrrghhhh! From a seated position in a boat it was a nightmare. Standing up and giving it the heave ho with a double haul and it got better, but it was a killer.
Ben,
Not sure if its becaue I am so used to a 9 or 10 weight tugging the rod on the back cast, but I struggled to "feel" the line with the Helios. Practice me thinks on my behalf!!
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"The rod was a Greys Platinum XD with a tropical sharkskin line"
Platinum XD - yes
Sharky - no - it was a conventional saltwater line - the braided core certainly was not for Scottish temperatures - different game in Florida.
If you think that's brutal Ben - I have a few other rods you should try :z4
For the record I supplied the outfit not Rich - he uses Sage rod mostly.
Rob - you mentioned that Mick Bell is building on Lohrics - could you point me at the website - cheers.
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http://www.bloke-rods.co.uk/trout.html
Scroll down to the "Custom Trout Rods" and you will see a mixed list of standard and Lohric blanks from Harrison.
http://www.flyforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10635&highlight=Lohric&page=4 Scroll down to Micks reply..."almost without exception my custom rods are built up on LOHRIC blanks."
Hope that helps.
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Rob if you wish to give it a try I have a t+t blank that was built as a rod by the old mallochs o perth. It is a through action blank and throws a mean 9wt. Its a bit battered and beaten and could do with a rebuild, but it is the best bi lure chucker I have come across jim
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Hi Rob
Thanks for that - the Bloke pages don't mention Lohric blanks. I didn't know Mick built on Lohrics - interesting because I'd love to review one - I'll call him Monday
Cheers
Magnus
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Hi Rob
Thanks for that - the Bloke pages don't mention Lohric blanks.
But one or two are listed in that list...if you know what you are looking for ;)..heehee!
Last time I spoke to him he was expecting a few new models in :)
Have a word with John at Meadow Fisheries just down the rod from Harrison...he builds on them too :)
I would be interested to see what you thought of them...
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Had a look at the meadow fishery site.
The Lorhic blanks seem quite well priced if a little limited in range.
I believe thats supposed to be in hand, mind you they came out in 2005.
As for guessing as to what blanks are the Lorhic ones on Micks list, i think you have missed your calling as a stand up comic :z4 :z4 :z4
I guess they will be the 3 pc 9ft 6wt, 9ft6" 6wt and 7wt, the 10ft 7wt and the 4pc 9ft6" 7wt.
Unless of course these really unusual sizes could have been thought up by other manufacturers ???.
Still at those prices i might get one up to try, pity they didn't make them in proper sizes :cry
Sandy
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Sandy,
what do you mean by proper sizes? Was speaking to John the other day and he was saying his site needs updating and that there are a few more Lohrics in the range...I believe "The Doctor" is keen to hear what folk want. so give him a ring and see what he has on the drawing table. :grin
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I would imagine that Sandy is talking about 9ft rods with line weights equal to (or more probably less than) a #5 :z16
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I recall a 4 weight 9 footer being mentioned..might still be on the rolling table...
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After reading all the names mentioned as casting greats - i find it intresting that none of them are world famous anglers.
My point being is it not more important to concentrate on how to catch fish rather than how to look like a designer caster :z4
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Speaking personally for the majority of the time most anglers use a small range of casts, it's only when the going gets tough you need to use some more complicated casts. Some of the more exdtreme casts are primarily for show. It's a bit like fly tying - theres a certain satisfaction in tying a really good fly, much better than is needed for the deciet of a trout or Salmon. I mean any angler or fisherman can appreciate the beauty of a well tied fully dressed Salmon fly but very few would actually fish with one.
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Baz
Most of us will never need to be able to cast 40yds , but it would be nice to able to do it if we ever did :cool:
Its not just about distance though , its better presentation , line control etc
Cheers
Jim
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My point being is it not more important to concentrate on how to catch fish rather than how to look like a designer caster :z4
The two go hand in hand IMHO, whilst luck is always going to be a big part of fishing it is primarily about skill. Casting skill in particular.
Honestly, casting on its own as a hobby is quite absorbing - no.... really :! It is :! :! In some ways it's an art form. But being able to translate that casting ability to the water when fishing makes the effort all worthwhile. I'd argue that the names Rob quoted in his first post - particularly Joan Wulff and Lefty Kreh - are among the best known international fishers of their time, maybe not so much now, but in their time - yes.
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Most of the good casters I know personally are extremely good anglers, Paul Procter has the ability to make any cast look easy and I think he catches fish sometimes. With a DH rod there are very few casters I have seen that make Spey casting look easier than Ally Gowans does and I am pretty sure that he catches his fair share. I rarely fish in freshwater with a single hander at more than 20 or so yards but being able to hit that range in any weather condition is only possible for me as I can throw quite a long way further, if you can cast 30 + yards then 20 with good turnover and a straight leader is quite easy.
Cheers
Ben
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Intresting thoughts anyway , obviously people will have different opinions but it seams i was the only one to think along these ways. As far as still water or reservoir fishing goes i am yet to see anyone produce anything other than a straight forward cast!
Anyhow thats my thinking with no malice intended.
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What about hauling & roll casts - they're very useful from a boat or bank. a reach cast when you want to drift buzzers and theres a strong cross wind . Do you use them?
If you decide to fish a river a straight cast is not going to let you fish as well as you might. What happens when you need to avoid drag? Cast around a boulder? Add heaps of slack? Cast through a tight gap in foliage? Theres a whole load of situations where the difference between success & failure is being able to execute the right cast.
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Baz
You are right as far as still water and reservoir goes , saying that on the big English reservoirs , fishing from the bank the guy who can cast furthest is going to catch the fish.
Baz I consider myself to be a fairly bad caster and not a good learner , with bad habits that I have picked up over the years, so I go with some trepedation, If an old dog set in their ways is willing to give it a go anyone can :cool:
:z18
Jim
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I would disagree with that jim as from my own experience the majority of the fish i catch are usually no further than 30 yds out. Half the time you get in a boat the most common drifts are along banks or are quite close in to the side.
Again its only an opinion :z4
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Baz
I was not saying that was the right thing to do, half the time the trout are at our feet , however on the English reservoirs ( competion wading restictions aside) folk tend to wade out as far as they can , this drives the fish further out hence the long casters get the fish.
:z18
Jim
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That i do agree with jim, i miss read your first post sorry.
Its actually quite funny you mention about the english waters , down at graftham this year everyone piled straight into as deep as they could wade before having a cast!
There was the odd wise old chaps who knew better though :z13
No one fished the margins and all the boat anglers tried to cast into where the bank anglers were!
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Even on a stillwater I use Speys now & again for example if I see a fish cruising / rising at 90 degrees to where my line is I would probably use a Spey to make the direction change and if necessary I would go into a false cast to ad distance, it is the fastest way to present a fly at a dramatically different angle.
Cheers
Ben
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I tend to go down the same road as barry. I said before that when you start to get into one aspect of fishing above any other then it becomes a pointless excercise. You are all more than welcome to come out in a boat with me on one of our bigger waters in a big wind and try and do more than put your flies out in a presentable manner. sod presentation its sometimes just doing it. Yes, I think at some time I learnt to underhand spey cast, but i dont use it . If its a casting club you want fair enough , I feel that these some times get elitist, i have been involved in the odd distance club but that was bait casters. Its quite funny how many of the casters held up as paragons of good casting are american, most of them dont fish still waters and ask them to sit down in a boat and cast they would look at you in a very bemused fashion. There is a place for trick casts ect but they are on exhibition fields when some sponsered caster or other is trying to sell some rod or other. I think I will give this one a miss, I love my fishing and travel all over the world to fish, but the danger of the "casting club" mentality is the same as the "dry fly" vs other forms of fly fishing and its a place I do not wish to go. good luck to those of you who do. jim
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Hi Jim
I don't know how ...... I guess I must have buggered up when describing the idea behind the Outcasts ....... but some of you appear to have some right funny ideas about the whole thing ........ :z6
"danger of the casting club mentality" ........ We haven't even had the taster session to see what folk would enjoy doing yet :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4 :z4
This is all about a bunch of fishers having a bit of fun in a park ..... simple as that :z7
And yes, in my humble opinion, having a bit of fun in a park may well help to improve your enjoyment of "fishing out in a boat on one of our bigger waters in a big wind" ........ it certainly didn't do me any harm at the Lintrathen outing, I think that was the first time I have ever fished 3 flies from a boat all day without a tangle or a wind knot :z3
Best wishes
Mike
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Jim
A less eletist bunch you are ever likely to meet :wink
:z18
Jim
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I said a big wind mike lol :grin :grin Maybe you should call it a casting clinic :z12 as I say good luck to those of you who wish to participate jim
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I said a big wind mike lol :grin :grin Maybe you should call it a casting clinic :z12 as I say good luck to those of you who wish to participate jim
Like the float tubing Jim, we don't really need to call it anything, we'll just go out there and enjoy ourselves ..... thanks for the "good luck" wishes anyway :wink
Cheers
Mike
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Hi folks :cool:
Reading back through it ..... this is a really interesting thread :wink
I'm glad we went ahead with the Outcasts taster session, despite the cold and breezy weather and I'm sure the gatherings are going to be a lot of fun next year :z16
Best wishes
Mike Barrio
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Hi folks :cool:
Reading back through it ..... this is a really interesting thread :wink
I'm glad we went ahead with the Outcasts taster session, despite the cold and breezy weather and I'm sure the gatherings are going to be a lot of fun next year :z16
Best wishes
Mike Barrio
Yes it was a great day. FOr future event tho I think we may need to look for a larger playarea as it was getting tight and we had a number of unfortunate dropouts that day! (hope everyone is feeling better!)
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Hi All,
Sorry guys , just catching up with this thread , and not trying to resurrect it .
To Jim Doyle and a lesser extent Big Troot I get the impression that we are talking a wee bit apples and oranges here.
I think , and correct me if I am wrong , but you guys are speaking mainly about stillwater bank or boat fishing , not river fishing . Sure , putting out a line on a loch , even in a gale , is a fairly straightforward affair. Not trying to be dimunitive here. This does not equate to what we are doing .
The "casting club" is I hope not just an end to itself ,the I,m better than you , beachcasting type scenario, described by Jim.
In context , being able to perform a variety of different fly casts in , say, a river situation can only help but improve ourselves as fly anglers.
Nowt to do with beachcasting prowess or otherwise. I can cast over 150 yards with my beachcaster ,(which is an old one !) . Yes, I would like to cast further , but I do not have the knowledge and technique to do so , YET !
It's not just about distance though , so comparing beachcasting to fly casting is indeed, apples and oranges.
Peter raises an excellent point also. Having an understanding of our casting, even in a boat sitaution , understanding wide and narrow loops, roll casting off either shoulder , change of direction casts , casting under differing wind directions, and casting utilising different competition techniques are all useful things for a fly fisher to have in his armoury, I.m sure you would agree.
It's not geekyness. It's about being better at fly FISHING. :z4
Never really understood why folk don't equate good casting with good fishing and the reverse.
Paul.