Fishing The Fly Scotland
Index => Rod Building => Topic started by: Sandy Nelson on 21/09/2009 at 01:37
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Hello Gents
What would you expect to pay for a completley Scottish Made flyrod that would compare to a Sage or Orvis, but be higher build quality and Partisan in flavour .
Would you buy one?
What type of one would you want?
Before you start i know such a thing already exists, but pretend it doesn't :wink and humour a bored Builder :z6
I'm thinking Carbon as well as cane so am open to all ideas.
:z18
Sandy
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It would have to compete on price, depending on who built such a thing build quality would have to be exceptional.
Would I buy one? Probably......
What type :? Hmmmmmm. That's tricky, market seems short of a really good loch drifting rod in the 11ft range for a 5/6wt. So my first hunt would be there as, to be fair, I have almost a good collection of rods in other sizes and weights.
Definately not a cane rod though, lovely to look at and works of art but not my personal 'bag'.
My two cents :wink
H :z3
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Cheers H
I suppose the idea is the blanks would be made in house, so almost anything could be made.
One wonders at just how economically you could produce truly bespoke rods.
and whether they could be made for the same sort of money as high end off the shelf products.
I reckon they could if you understood the material and lay-ups well enough, that opens up a lot of possibilities.
All theory of course, anyone else got any ideas!!!!!!!!
Sandy
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Am I not correct in thinking we have a scottish builder that can build a bespoke rod already...?? Infact, two builders..David Norwich and Clan rods?
I think one of the biggest problems for such a scheme would be peoples attitude. For some reason people think that the best custom rods are made in the US (I think this is based on cost..its more expensive so it must be better). Place a Sage and a Harrison blank on the table and I bet 99.9% of folk would want the Sage. However, there are quite a few builders in the UK using Harrison blanks, Mick Bell being one of them, to build there own custom range, and people pick the rods up and say its the best rod they have ever used!
Using an American term...go figure :)
I really cannot think of very many custom builders that actually roll there own cloth..I have spoken with David Norwich at length about his process and the guy understands fishing rods as does Dr Harrison, although Harrisons are would famous for there carp blanks, very few have seen or used there fly rods.
At the end of the day I dont believe its the cost of the materials that would knock up the price, it would be the manufacture of the mandrels and the time and effort spent getting these right that would prohibit rods being made at a reasonable cost.
Lastly, manufacturers like Sage, Loomis, Daiwa etc have access to amazing facilities and materials that your average rod builder would never see. This means they can build lighter, faster, stronger rods than Joe Bloggs in his shed..but, it does not always mean they build better "fishing" rods :)
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Very interesting thread that I have no chance of contributing too haha
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In my opinion being made in Scotland would be a nice to have in a rod but would not be a major factor in rod choice, definitely would not be prepared to pay more just because a rod had been made in Scotland.
A higher build quality would justify a higher price but it would be difficult to quantify this without some comparison of the goods. From the Orvis rods I have looked at the build quality was very good, not sure that an improvement on this would justify a significant price increase.
It would seem that the target market would be quite niche, aiming at people wanting a rod that is a little bit special and have some money to burn.
Robbie
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Rob
Interesting response, not really much to do with the question :z6 but an interesting response.
With one or two largely missinformed statements- i'll leave you to discover them :wink one day :wink
Robbie
I was kinda thinking that price would at most, equal that of the high Orvis/Sage hopefully undercut them, not the other way around.
What i wanted to know was what type of rod would you like, if you could have anything and would you be willing to pay a decent price for it
assuming it did not exceed that of a high end Sage/Orvis, (should you have the means to be looking at one).
And being honest chaps, would you buy one? genuinely :z8 Or would you go for off the shelf because what you want is there for the taking? even if you could have something a little more exclusive for the same kind of readies
Sandy
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Sandy,
When you mention high end Sage / Orvis I assume you are talking about around £600 rods. I don’t think I could get a purchase like that past the financial controller. I am a tackle tart and if I was in a position to buy such a rod, something more exclusive would be a temptation. :grin
I have a 9ft #4, which is my go to rod, and a 10ft #7 for any heavier work. I have been toying with the idea of a shorter light line rod for use on a couple of small over grown streams. I thought the Orvis superfine 6ft #2 might be an option. This is all pie in the sky just now.
One thing that would affect choice would be the ability to try before you buy, especially when purchasing a higher end rod.
Cheers,
Robbie
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Sandy,
Please elaborate rather than just take the p!ss.
You asked what people would pay, I replied I dont think they would as they would rather buy American. Did that not answer your question?
You highlighted Made which I took as you meaning from the ground up..which is already being done.
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You highlighted Made which I took as you meaning from the ground up..which is already being done.
never said it wasn't :grin yet
You asked what people would pay, I replied I dont think they would as they would rather buy American. Did that not answer your question?
:z8
I'm confused, someone must buy them.
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Robbie
cheers for that I was thinking more around the £400 mark though
especially if the rod was a standard ish size.
Sandy
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Sandy
I already have a high quality rod, a Winston BIIx built in Scotland by some dude by the name of Nelson. What are you going to do to beat that? The only thing you would be offering would be the cachet of the blank being made locally. I can't see how one small operator could compete with the development and testing facilities of the likes of Scott, Orvis, Sage, Hardy etc. combined.
Also once you have made them, you have to market them so the costs of advertising, attending demonstration days etc. spread over a small number of rods is going to bump your costs up even further.
Stick to the building. You can offer customised rods at competitive prices and let someone else deal with the costs of replacing breakages.
Maybe my outlook is tainted by years of being self employed but there's my tuppence worth.
Orrabest
Irvine
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Hi Sandy,
1) What would you expect to pay for a completley Scottish Made flyrod that would compare to a Sage or Orvis, but be higher build quality and Partisan in flavour .
2) Would you buy one?
3) What type of one would you want?
Answers for me,
1) £200-£400
2) Yep.
3) 8ft 8" 4wt
Why do you ask ? Have you got some spare blanks salted away !! :z4
Paul.
Irvine, maybe part of Sandy's point is that he can (has) utilised exactly what you mention in terms of the big name rod (blank) manufacturers capabilities ie they do the development nitty gritty .
He selects exactly what the buyer wants to build on , ( or he's come across a blank makers factory for sale ! )
:wink
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Few good points there, I think any potential UK builder would have to do a bit of resaerch and find a niche or several to fill and then set about working on the best strategy to fill them. The big companies will always have access to better banks and technology, the fact that they are big already means that they are able to go buy the latest technology or at least someone who can give it to them. I would say that there probably is a market for a made in Scotland rod but it would need to be marketed correctly and it would have to compare to the very best out there in the same price bracket. We have world class fishing here so I think that rods made here would, or could do well even outside of the UK. Build quality would not be an issue if the rods were made on a small scale by one or a handful of builders and, with a clever build and the right components it is possible to make a blank into several very different "rods". I would think that, unless it was cane then the price would have to be £400 or less, once above this the builder would be marketing the rod against Orvis Helios, Sage G5, or Angel 2 carbon technology, all of this is serious stuff and no matter how good the build was the blank and carbon would have to be up to the same spec to command the same price. I may be a bit different, I want a rod for how it does the job of fishing and casting, if it is sh!t hot I do not really care about having to pick a bit of epoxy off the rings but I do like good cork on a rod at any price, finish and origin certainly would not be the deciding factors for me purchasing a rod or not. The question for me is always, is this the best performing rod out there for what I intend to use it for at the price I want to pay?
Cheers
Ben
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Sandy,
the only rod that immediately springs to mind is something in the 10' 6" - 11' 3-4wt camp (4wt I think). A nice softish action in Olive with copper trimmings & a slim half wells handle. Reel seat would be up for discussion. I've a wee tributary where, although narrow, would benefit from the control that such a tool could give due to serious bankside vegetation.
:wink
ALSO the rod bag and tube would have to be stylish - maybe it's just me but I think for a bespoke rod these things are important.
Cost? remembering that I'm skint, £250 to £300 pounds? OK so I'm cheap! :z7
Take it easy
Iain
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This is great guys :z18
keep it coming, giving me lots to think about
I expected a few different takes on this.
So do you think that a custom build on a "label"
blank is going to be a better product?
Or is it all in our heads,due to marketing
power :z6
cheers
sandy :z3
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Ok, am I missing the point?
Bespoke rod made in Scotland from custom mandrels and cloth - David Norwich - also have the ability to get small runs of your own blank run off.
Bespoke rod made in Scotland from custom built cane (Bamboo) - Clan Rods - will build you EXACTLY what you want..but its expensive. (also do carbon, greenheart etc)
Rod designed, manufactured, built and marketed in Scotland - Daiwa - massive range in both cost and quality.
Custom built on a "label" blank - numerous builders from small, " a dozon a year" to the likes of Alba Rods that do hundreds a year.
So what is the uniquness of it? Where is the niche? You can get Scottish built, from the ground up, rods from £100 to £10,000 already.
Not trying to be obnoxious, just trying to work out what the finished product is and what would be unique about it and therefore why would people want one?
Ben,
You mention about carbon technology etc...there is one UK blank manufacturer that can and does take on the US companies, but unfortuantly its not interested in fly rods. I would even go as far as saying that the technology this company has will feed out to the likes of the US companies as its primary role is the development of military compositse. ie, helicopter blades etc. extremely advanced stuff that they are now using in there carp and sea rods.
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I expected a few different takes on this.
So do you think that a custom build on a "label"
blank is going to be a better product?
Or is it all in our heads,due to marketing power
Sandy
Are you trying to tell me you know enough to make a blank that is as good as a Scott S4, an Orvis Helios etc? Even if you do, will you be able to compete with their products in 5 years time? If your blanks are not that good then the Ben Dixons of this world won't buy them, so what is your market sector?
Building on another maker's blank is a low risk business. Your only investment is a few rod turning machines and you can rent a small working space. Up front capital investment, almost nil. The maker provides the warranty on the blank. Cost to you - nothing. You can also cater to a wide range of customers by selecting the blank to suit their budget.
On the other hand, what is the cost of a blank rolling plant, how much time will you have to spend building and testing prototypes? You will be in a narrow market with only your own limited range of blanks to build on. What do you do if a customer comes back and wants a rod for bonefish? It's a high cost investment in capital and time into a narrow market sector so it's high risk.
How much are you willing to gamble?
That's my business head talking. Maybe I'm too cautious but at least I'm still in business.
Cheers
Irvine
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The maker provides the warranty on the blank. Cost to you - nothing.
Not always the case. Most manufacturers make it very clear that the warrenty is for the "original owner"..that being the builder as they buy the blank then sell the blank on, thus making it "secondhand".
It is possible to get a "warrenty" on a custom rod from the original manufacturer, but the only one I know in the UK is Simpsons of Turnford, in Kent. That is with Sage. Simpsons make a big deal about them being the only place in the UK allowed to offer this.
I am lucky in that I have not had a rod break for a customer (thats tempted fate), but if that happens, there is little I can do besides getting a replacement section amd making it at cost.
However, I have been assured that IF that happens to me, the supplier will sort cheaply..but there is still a cost to pass on.
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Ok, am I missing the point?
Yes, read the very first post again, particularly the second paragraph :z16
Not trying to be obnoxious
Never thought you were. :z7
just trying to work out what the finished product is and what would be unique about it and therefore why would people want one?
And this is what i was doing too :z6
I'm going to be here for at least 4 years (probably longer), so starting something in UK is not likely. It was more a game of lets pretend to see what people might actually want from the market. Besides a lot can change in 4 years :wink
I was kind of expecting you to want a "Browning Special" carp blank with some sort of secret ingredient that others have missed :wink
:z18
Sandy