[Rob Brownfield]

I have a few of the new Airflo Sniper Pike/Saltwater lines (9 weight)and I have to say, I am struggling with them.

I normally use Rio Outbounds and can cast a full one on a good day but these Snipers have me beat!

I seem to be plagued with either the line crashing into the rod tip, even if I open the loops, or, the fly smacking me on the back.

When it does shoot, it seems to collapse at the end of the cast in that the last 6-10 feet land in a pile. At most I am getting 20 m, I can go further than that with a standard WF 5 weight!!

I have tried speeding up, slowing down, hauling harder and so on.

Any ideas what I am doing wrong?

[Marc Fauvet]

hi Rob,
after lunch i'll have a diagram that'll hopefully explain what's happening. in the meantime stop casting ! 

[Hamish Young]

I'll be interested to see what Marc suggests Rob and I don't want to pre-empt his advice but, if you can get yourself up here, I'd be happy to help you out.
I've an idea or two about what's going on and it gives me an excuse to get my instructors head on again 
Could be good craic 

H

[Marc Fauvet]

ok, typical scenario when the fly hits the back looks a little like this. it's a tracking issue.

seen from above, the BC is swung around in a curve. not exclusively as the basic back-hitting end result will be the same regardless of line types, this curve can/will be accentuated by the different densities of the sink-tip. (the faster tip will 'kick' more than say, a standard floater)

when the FC is performed, the repositioning of the rod tip to cast in a straight line leaves a curved end of the line and leader.

if there's no obstruction such as the caster or rod tip, this curved end only straightens out (it doesn't always straighten out... ) until it's well past, in front of the caster.
it's the exact same effect as the 'dangle' that's apparent on almost all comp-style distance casts buts its more in a tilted-over or say, horizontal plane instead of the vertical plane in distance casts.

my drawings suck but i hope they'll help a little... 
maybe a better way to understand the 'curved dangle' thing is to watch this great video by my buddy Aitor.

[Marc Fauvet]

hmmm, not sure that was very clear, specially as it might seem that it suggests that one should be casting this kit as if it was a 4wt dry fly... 

by all means, use an elliptic cast ! (Oval, Belgian, whatever) but work on smoothing out both casting planes and maybe mostly the point where the line tip/leader/fly swing around.
what really helps with that last bit is to consciously raise the elbow (or as Robert Gillespie calls it in Spey casting: the Climbing Curve) as the line shifts from side cast to almost overhead.
another way to think of this elbow lifting is to imagine it as a vertical straight-up drift.
this lifting greatly helps to get rid of the curved tip seen in the second diagram.
cheers,
marc

[Rob Brownfield]

Hi Marc,
Thank you for taking the time to explain!!! That video seems to be exactly what is happening! I never used to have that issue but I wonder if I have got too used to the 4 weight and super tight loops and tiny DHE's and now that I am opening things up a bit the tracking has gone to pot! The weight of the head, I presume, would encourage any faults to manifest themselves?

Had to laugh at the second drawing, the fly is just about to scale!

[Marc Fauvet]

what's really cool with this video and how explains/demonstrates the dangle effect is that it completely disproves the commonly accepted rule that states that the line always follows the rod tip. 

[Rob Brownfield]

Hamish, I would love to get up your way, especially on a loch with carp

Seriously though, I need to head your way as the Pike should be at the end of spawning soon and I would like to get on a couple of the Conon lochs....with a tube!

[Rob Brownfield]

it completely disproves the commonly accepted rule that states that the line always follows the rod tip. 

Video me and I can assure tou that you will get footage of the line doing everything BUT follow the rod tip

[Marc Fauvet]

The weight of the head, I presume, would encourage any faults to manifest themselves?

Had to laugh at the second drawing, the fly is just about to scale!

for the same line wt rating, sink tips and sinking lines aren't heavier, they just go faster in the air than floating lines as they're thinner. thus the typical 'kick' that's the result of two different densities (floating/sinking).

and yes, the fly is the streamer you posted recently ! 
glad to help,
marc

[Rob Brownfield]

Its a floating sniper I am struggling with just now. Very thick and also ridged, and I do wonder if the ridges "catch the air" when its unfurling and that's why I am not getting a good turnover. When I switch to a Rio Outbound intermediate, no problems.

[Will Shaw]

Hi Rob

Are you used to the standard Outbound or the OB shorts?

The Sniper seems to have a much shorter head than the std. OB (28ft vs 37ft). Notwithstanding the tracking issues you have (ouch!), short headed lines can be tough to get a good turnover with - especially into any kind of breeze.

I've not used the snipers so can't speak directly to those lines, but some things that can help with short heads are:

1) Slipping a couple to five feet of extra running line into the last backcast
2) make the final delivery with a long/late/smooth haul
3) work on release timing. This is related to the haul length, but you might find hanging on an extra split-second can smooth turnover a lot.

Might work.

Other than that, see Hamish! 

W.

[Marc Fauvet]

1) Slipping a couple to five feet of extra running line into the last backcast
2) make the final delivery with a long/late/smooth haul
3) work on release timing. This is related to the haul length, but you might find hanging on an extra split-second can smooth turnover a lot.

all of the above ! 
also, i'm guessing that on the final shoot you're 'throwing' the line behind you ?
since pike fishing usually doesn't involve full line casts, you could try letting the running line slide through your thumb and index finger of the line hand like this-

line still shoots but it's slowed down a bit and greatly improves turnover.
(i'd still go see Hamish  )
cheers,
marc

[Derek Roxborough]

No Idea what weight leader you are using but I would try a slightly heavier leader or a slightly stiffer one I had a toothy critter leader and I cut it shorter before I joined a wire tip, It made a difference , I use an Airflo Delta 7/8,with a WF 8 floater easgach 1

[Marc Fauvet]

Rob, this other video by Aitor is another view of the curved-end issue.
the thing to keep in mind is that on the reversal stroke, the line end will go back 180° to where it was placed and not follow the rod tip's path till much further on in the cast.
our goal is to not put it at that angle in the first place ! (easier said than done...  )