[Derek Roxborough]

after reading the post about migratory browns and pike, I thought I might bring up our club experience , we have  2 lochs with pike in them stocked in Victorian times, as far as I can gather, the lochs are a closed system, being now a hydro scheme, although the down stream penstock has some pike in it, we tried many years back to net out the larger pike with large mesh gill nets, but we also took some specimen trout so we shelved that, we did notice that larger trout took small pike, it is a loch /lochs that have some decent trout, we have stocked it with trout from the Aviemore trout farm , but it was obvious we were just feeding pike, so we now leave it, although we have a hankering to stock some trout from another loch on the same system, well above the pike lochs, I was at the new fishery
initiative meeting, and one of the Inverness pike club men was there complaining about the Killing of pike and what could be done about it, also at the meeting was the chairman of the local salmon fishery board,he told the guy that,as these were none native invasive predators they had to be killed,and not returned to the water. I read Allans bit on Lochs Roisque  and luichart, this is a massive system containing also Loch Achanalt the river Brahn, Lochs Crann, Fhialeaih ,and Moine mhor,covering about 20 miles, and probably well able to cope with the pike population, where as the other places Mentioned have quite closed systems , and are  not able to cope so well with pike .I have the feeling that our local system struggles, but we are stuck with it,There was a rumour that some one had taken pike up to another local loch but we set some live traps and produced nothing, so there are those that a quite happy to do this
 we must be on our guard , there are already minnows in places where they shouldn't be , competing with small trout fry for feed,
easgach 1
 

[Rob Brownfield]

2 lochs with pike in them stocked in Victorian times, as far as I can gather, the lochs are a closed system, ........ but we also took some specimen trout

So I can take it that this example dispels the often quoted "Pike will eat everything and there won’t be any trout left”? After 200 years, if it were going to happen, you would expect no trout.

we did notice that larger trout took small pike

This has been noted in numerous locations and in some cases, Brown trout remain the Apex predator. Pike are also inherently cannibalistic and will control their own numbers.

but it was obvious we were just feeding pike, so we now leave it

I would be interested in any evidence for this. Numerous studies show that Pike prefer a prey size of below 8” with 4-6" being by far the preferred size. Waters that are stocked with farmed trout (presumably over 10-12") show extremely low predation on the trout stocks, and of those trout taken, they tend to be injured or sick ones.

as these were none native invasive predators they had to be killed,and not returned to the water

In that case, same goes for Rainbow Trout. Not only does the rainbow directly compete for food, it is a predator on fry and will in some circumstances, disturb spawning areas. Rainbows have destroyed many a natural Brown Trout water.

but we set some live traps and produced nothing,

Could you please define “live traps”.

we must be on our guard , there are already minnows in places where they shouldn't be , competing with small trout fry for feed,

I agree, we must all be on guard as the illegal movement of fish is wrong. I would believe that Minnows, rather than having an impact, would have a direct positive effect on Brownies in the way of a source of easy. high protein food. I once read that there is no such thing as a good Brown trout water without a healthy population of Minnows. (An American writer if I remember).



Thank you for sharing as it is important to get information on the effect of illegal stockings or indeed, legal ones that modern anglers may not agree with.


I would add that it is also important not to underestimate the impact of illegal fishing that has also gone on in recent years. I fished Duntelchaig in the summer where we found baited lines. Not one or two but 14 of them. I am sure there were probably more in other locations around the loch. They were baited with worms, corn and minnows. The Inverness Pike guys have also pulled baited lines from numerous lochs North of Inverness. This MUST have an effect on the local trout population.

But that’s a whole other subject….. 

[Derek Roxborough]

luckily for th trout there are numerous  side burns where the pike don't seem to go, the early stockings were with 6-8 in trout, we then stocked with larger trout and solved the problem but not the problem of the fishmongers arriving and going home with the stock fish,from as far a field as Embra! my point with the minnows is that they are not native to highland waters, they were brought in by the live baiters,the live trap was a cage trap, with fine mesh leader, visited each day and emptied, it was loaned by the local fishery trust, they use it for tagging smolts etc,as for pike preference feed sizels, 20 inch trout have ejected by 15 plus lbs pike,we have to live with them, but the law forbids the return of none native predators ,according to the chairman of the salmon fishery board
easgach 1 

[Allan Liddle]

Think you're missing a couple of key points here Rob,

1 What were all these waters like (in trout population / fishing terms before the introduction of pike?
2. Minnows will compete directly with the base food source ie insect life and potentially the eggs / newly emerging trout who have a hard enough time surviving as it is. You could argue the same on waters such as the Clyde that introduction of Signal Crayfish has been a positive thing?

Of course some trout will survive in a water where pike have been introduced but their feeding habits as well as the overall impact on the trout population in general and how the water fishes will be impacted upon forever.

Irrespective of all that there seems to be a strong potential for the illegal movement of pike to continue.

[Rob Brownfield]

but the law forbids the return of none native predators ,according to the chairman of the salmon fishery board

  And this is precisely why I have little time for some Fishery Board members who really should know better and most certainly should know the Law pertaining to there chosen profession.

The Invasive Non Native Species  (INNS) list contains 5 fish, The Asian Topmouth Gudgeon, Minnows, Ruffe , Orfe and lastly, Bullheads.

There is no list of "non native Predators".

However, under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Keeping and Release and Notification Requirements (Scotland) Order 2012, Pike are listed as being as a species that cannot be kept or released "without a Licence".

However, the legal definition of the word "released" pertains to being introduced from captivity, released into the wild. The definition of "kept" is farmed, kept as a pet, stocked into a garden pond, kept in an aquarium etc.

Here is the order:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2002/12/15899

Please note the important guidance:
"Anyone, including fish farmers and dealers/distributors, who wishes to keep or release such species must have a licence. Those wishing to buy and/or keep non-native fish subject to the licensing arrangements should be aware that granting of a licence cannot be guaranteed".

Please also note that a licence may be granted for fish on the list, and it already has been in the case of Barbel, Ide (Orfe), Grass Carp and a few others.

Please also note that the Pike Anglers Alliance for Scotland, The Pike Anglers Club of Great Britain, The Scottish Federation of Coarse Anglers, Magiscroft (A commercial coarse fishery) and various other coarse fishing clubs all were consulted and agreed to the legislation. At no point was the release of a Pike that had been captured on rod and line ever in doubt.


The last very important note in the legislation is this:

"The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 applies only to the release into the wild of species not ordinarily resident in or not regular vistors to Great Britain, and species included in Part I of Schedule 9 of that Act".

[Rob Brownfield]

Irrespective of all that there seems to be a strong potential for the illegal movement of pike to continue.

Which is illegal and present laws cover this.

[Marc Fauvet]

However, under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (Keeping and Release and Notification Requirements (Scotland) Order 2012, Pike are listed as being as a species that cannot be kept or released "without a Licence".

hiya,
what in the world is the non-licensed angler who catches one supposed to do with it then ?!   
cheers,
marc

[Rob Brownfield]

hiya,
what in the world is the non-licensed angler who catches one supposed to do with it then ?!   
cheers,
marc

Read above....there is nothing to stop an angler catching and releasing a Pike.

The Licence and the legislation applies to people who wish to keep fish on the list as a "pet", through to people who wish to stock a fishery.

The licence and legislation does not apply to anglers who have caught and then subsequently released the fish in a water.

[Marc Fauvet]

gotcha, thanks. the whole fishing administration in the UK is all a bit convoluted imo, but i guess that's part of the fun... 

[Rob Brownfield]

gotcha, thanks. the whole fishing administration in the UK is all a bit convoluted imo, but i guess that's part of the fun... 

Fun? It's a bloody nightmare in Scotland because we don't have one central governing body making the rules.

This leaves "interpretation" of laws to suit ones own agenda or address ones ignorance of others fishing methods. 

[Derek Roxborough]

minnows can double their population every 2 years, as dryflee says they are serious competitors for the trout fry and parr, one of our decent trout lochs has become impossible to bank fish as the trout wont compete with the minnows, there has been some sighting of trout taking minnows , but I have seen shoals of minnows, apparently untouched by trout, where as I have seen the loch leven trout
slashing away at the minnow shoals. I was at the local fisheries consultation meeting where the subject of pike was brought to the attention of Andrew thin,he made no comment at the time,after the meeting I considered that we should be careful what we wish for, the out come may contain more redtape than we need, and jobs for the boys,area management centrally controlled seemed to be a possibility, but there will be a lot of vested interests, personally if I fish for pike I will take them out of water where they have no business to be, this only a personal idea, easgach 1