[Hamish Young]

So, what do you consider as being the pinnacle of fly rod design in any material up to the end of the 20th century and why Difficult to qualify, I know, as everyone has different views/likes/dislikes.
But it struck me whilst on the phone to Ben last night there has to be a highlight in every generation, a rod that has redefined how rods are built or something that was exceptional etc.
For example:
20th Century - carbon fibre -  Sage TCR 9' #5wt

No rights or wrongs here, just an opportunity to discuss.

H

[Ben Dixon]

Helios single handed rods.  First and still the only rod to use the technology and redefined light in terms of fishing rods.  Not sure I'd pin down lengths or line weights as it depends upon the task in hand.


Cheers

Ben

[Ewan Lindsay]

I'm by no means on officianado - certainly when compared to you two  - but I have to agree with Ben.  I now have two Helios single handed rods (8'4" 3wt and 8'6" 5wt) and have not looked back.  They are ridiculously light but powerful and accurate.  I fish all day when I go out and these let me put in a 6-8hr day without getting tired at all.

Ben was trying to teach me to double haul this morning for a couple of hours and I used my X-Flite 10' 7 wt (for the first time this year) and my arm is still sore!  It felt like a barge pole anyway!  I can see it being relegated to Emergency use only and me completing my Helios set with a 10' 7wt.  Mind you Ben speaks highly of the new Access rods - still light but a lot cheaper...


Ewan

[Sandy Nelson]

20th Century - carbon fibre -  Sage TCR 9' #5wt

????????

When was it released??? Same goes for Helios ?????? I'm thinking 21st century

So what are your criteria are we talking any period or do you wish to keep to the 20th century

Sandy

[Peter McCallum]

Mind you Ben speaks highly of the new Access rods - still light but a lot cheaper...

Yup very nice rods, Soundmixer is well chuffed with his

[Hamish Young]

When was it released??? Same goes for Helios ?????? I'm thinking 21st century

Indeed they were - I should have picked another example than a TCR (I'm ever so slightly TCR fixated at the moment ).

So what are your criteria are we talking any period or do you wish to keep to the 20th century

I do believe the answer is in the first line of my initial question:

So, what do you consider as being the pinnacle of fly rod design in any material up to the end of the 20th century and why

To qualify that, I mean a rod from any period, in any material up to the end of the 20th Century.
So, from the inception of the fly rod up until 11 years ago.

Clear

H

[Euan Innes]

Yup very nice rods, Soundmixer is well chuffed with his

Sure am! 
I agree with Ben on the Helios but then along came the Access and the PRICE of an Access, compared to the Helios. Technology is moving on at a fair rate these days.
I used to have a Loomis GLX 9'6" #7. What a thing to throw line and at a weight that wasn't that much more than a Helios (good for it's time anyway). It was also an elbow f**ker and was the main reason I went to lighter line weights. My casting developed in a strange way too and I am only now just getting it back to where it should be. If you cast that Loomis long enough you tried to do the same with every rod, bamboo included and that didn't work. I can now throw my #4 Access almost as far,and I mean within a yard or two, and I'm still getting to grips with the Access.

So what is the pinnacle of fly rod design? My vote goes to the Access.
The Helios, I think, was the expensive prototype and is a fantastic rod, but the Access is 95% of a Helios at 50% of the price, so that tech is now available to more people.

I'm now looking at a 9' #9 for the salt and for practising the long distance stuff. It really is a cracker.

 

[Irvine Ross]

To qualify that, I mean a rod from any period, in any material up to the end of the 20th Century.
So, from the inception of the fly rod up until 11 years ago.

Well it has to be whoever made the jump from glass fibre to carbon fibre, but I was not doing any fly fishing in that period, so I don't know who did it first. Certainly all the ghillies I knew at that time thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.

So, come on all you with long memories and tell us who did it first.

Irvine

[Derek Roxborough]

Shakespear brought out their President in the 70's/80's, thats the first carbon fibre I remember,My best rod was a shakespear imperial 8ft 5 wt, until I lost it off the car roof, easgach1

[Barry Robertson]

Why do you all like Orvis so much just out of curiousity  ???
I have held an Orvis helios side by side to a sage Xp and the Xp made the Hellios feel like a curtain pole! Maybe its just my preference but i didnt get a semi when handling a Hellios, it might also be the fact that you are using them on rivers and iam using them on reservoirs  ???
The loomis NRX is pretty special and cant see anything beating that at the moment but doubt i would pay the asking price! 

[Ben Dixon]

Why do you all like Orvis so much just out of curiousity  ???
I have held an Orvis helios side by side to a sage Xp and the Xp made the Hellios feel like a curtain pole! Maybe its just my preference but i didnt get a semi when handling a Hellios, it might also be the fact that you are using them on rivers and iam using them on reservoirs  ???
The loomis NRX is pretty special and cant see anything beating that at the moment but doubt i would pay the asking price! 

Baz,

I don't just fish rivers mate, I fish for anything on all waters really.  We are talking about design here rather than do you like X or Y rod.  Helios was the first to use full thermoplastic resin throughout the blank, it was totally new technology in 2008 and afforded a weight reduction of >20%.  At the time, nearly 4 years ago, it was groundbreaking and whether you like the tapers, action, or finish of the Helios range is not really an issue, the technology set a new bench mark.  Helios upped the bar and I personally believe was, in part, responsible for explosion of so called nano tech rods (sand particles in standard epoxy).  This is why I see them as special.
You like the XP?  I'd sooner have an RPL.
Which Helios & which XP did you compare?  The 107 or 108 compared to an XP age rod would leave it standing, about half the weight and the heavier the rod the bigger the difference gets.  Reduce the mass in the blank and fittings (particularly in the upper 3rd) and you reduce the moment of inertia, this results in a more accurate rod with faster recovery, less fatigue when casting etc.  You'd be welcome to borrow a Helios 108 for a few weeks if you'd like?

I'm not sure who was responsible but Grant would have to be there for his greenheart vibrator rods, whoever made the first split cane rods, then the first hollow build or impregnated rod, bamboo ferruled rod.  Fibreglass, then first carbon, up to present day.  Not sure what rods would be in this list but these are a few things that I would say were fairly important leaps.  Even pinning things down to a brand is tough, I think I'd look at technology advances.  I quite like some Orvis bamboos and I also like the shorter Scotties, many would say these were bad as they are impregnated who would rather some wobbly wangy noodle shit.

Cheers

Ben

[Barry Robertson]

Very informative post Ben, thanks!

To be honest the whole tec spec bit is way over my head and i judge a rod based on how it feels casting, presenting flies either dry or nymphs and for its ability to bully fish!
The sand particle bit is for clever people so i will stay out of that, as for the XP i find it a good all rounder and from the hellios i tried i didnt get the same experience.
I cand remember the actual model of the hellios i tried but i would be willing to try out other models to see if they were all that!
As you work for Orvis dont you feel you have a slight bias towards them or do you really think they are just that bit specialer than others out there just now!
Have you tried the new NRX and what did you think of it?

[Euan Innes]

On the subject of bamboo and it's importance in the grand scheme of design things, three men stand out.
H. L Leonard, Everett Garrison and Hoagy Carmichael brought the design of grass rods from "some wobbly wangy noodle shit" towards more modern tapers.

Many of their rods are as good as modern carbon rods and are really light. And like the Helios they are whoo-rin' expensive! These gentlemen were the start of the taper design era that has led us to where we are now. Modern bamboo makers still use the tools that these chaps used. In fact the machinery from the Leonard shop, including the beveler, was purchased at auction by Marc Aroner who continues to make rods under his own name, and his rods are sublime.

Just a thought

 

[Rob Brownfield]

For me..the most advanced 20th century rod (Helios does not count chaps) is the Norboron from Normark.

Even the likes of Magnus bought one with his own money

Fast taper, fuji SiCs right the way through, 24ct gold fittings, and most importantly, boron fibres to dapen any vibration and "wobble", something that very few manufacturers had sussed by that time.

It really was highly advanced compared to other rids on the market.

The 10 foot 7 weight revolutionised competition fishing, handling Di7 lines as easily as it did floaters.

As for the first Carbon rods, Hardy patented carbon content in 1971..I think it was a maximum of 35%, but they had produced carbon reinforced plastic tubes under the Fibretube banner in the late 60's.

I think the first "full carbon" rods, which were actually about 65% were made available to the public in 1977 by a company called Garbolino. As I say, I think that was the case. Hardy claim the first rod, a spinning rod, the year before, but as it was reinforced with carbon rather than made of more than 50% carbon, the general feeling is that it was not a "carbon" rod
...a real oversite in the patent process...ooops

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Baz,

I do work for Orvis so anything I write is going to appear biased but I would be fishing with Helios rods regardless, all the models in the range may not suit my tastes but they are all good rods and I believe it is the material used (as well as the tapers) that makes them such good rods.  
I use other stuff too, still throwing a TCR 5 for distance because it is better for the job than the Helios and recently looked at getting another Sage simply for casting with but then I cast the Access 912 and it was better and cheaper than the Sage I was looking at for the job it needed to do.  Most of my single handed fishing rods however are Helios and I cannot see that changing any time soon.  I'm fishing with MacKenzie salmon rods and I've just acquired a Daiwa Osprey Amorphous Long Distance Special for single handed Spey with long lines, for that job this is better than a Helios or any other modern rod as it bends to the butt.  If I could find a similar blank made from Helios material, I'd be on that as it would be less than half the weight which would mean I could turn it faster and probably throw it further.

I have tried the NRX rods, I really liked the heavier saltwater rods, the 9' #10 & 11 were very nice and did feel quite "special".  The lighter line rods felt O.K but nothing special, nothing different or astonishing about them and they were a bit soft & slow for my taste however that is a subjective thing.  I have cast the Zenith 107 a few times and I preferred that to the NRX in same configuration, the Zenith is really quite sweet but I'd still take the Helios first every time.  You'd want to have a good play with any of them with the lines you'd use on them before dropping the cash though.

Drop me a note if you're wanting a play with a Helios stocky bashing rod.

Euan,

Best grass rods I've used are Sharpes Scottie (I think 7' #4) Orvis 7' #4 a Gary Nicholson custom bamboo ferruled thing which was stunning and a Norwegian 7' #9 rod built for salmon & steelhead which was awesome.  There seems to be a thing amongst bamboo nuts whereby it's cool to like really wangy shit, similar to whisky snobs that will only entertain the real bogging stuff that tastes like fermented compost, because whisky should be like that.

Anyway, enough of me hijacking H's thread!

Cheers

Ben