Fishing The Fly Scotland Forum

Mike Barrio

Leader Material Design
« on: 22/06/2011 at 00:26 »
Hi folks :cool:

I have been getting my teeth in to a new project ...... and I'd like some feedback please :wink

When it comes to leader materials ( tippet / cast etc ) what do you think is most important?

I am obviously looking for the best knot strength and strength against diameter :z3

But what about about stiffness, do you prefer a stiff leader product or a supple one? What do you look for in your leader materials?

Best wishes
Mike

Peter McCallum

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #1 on: 22/06/2011 at 08:30 »
Clear. :z4 then dia isn't as vital in most cases.

If your fishing 3 flies a bit stiffer to keep dropers out.

Steven Kidd

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #2 on: 22/06/2011 at 10:29 »
Mike,

I am glad you asked this question.........

For dry fly fishing the conundrum is getting both of the below, (which is not easy)

1. Suppleness for delicate turnover of small flies.  (Most fluorocarbons are not that supple, copolymers are).
2. Fine diameters for delicate turnover, which still cut through the surface film.  (Fluorocarbons are good at this, copolymers are not).
3. Good knot strength.  it is sometimes difficult to get a blood knot to grip the fly with very fine tippets, especially with some heavier wired hooks.

For wet flies copolymer is more reliable for knot strength, especially when fishing three flies.  However some fluorocarbons are stiffer and therefore help stop your droppers tangling.

what we need mike is a Fluorolymer!

Cheers,

Skidd

Peter Rawlinson

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #3 on: 22/06/2011 at 10:34 »
Strength ,  Diam. and Visibilty are obviously required which I find in the fluorocarbons Airflow and Frog Hair ( Not had any problems with knots ).

But rub your finger nail along a short length of Frog Hair and it curls up like a pigs tail . The same thing happens when you come up against a rock or weed on the river .  ie.  It has got too much memory .

If stiffness will cure the memory problem and still keep the same specs, then that is what I would go for . 

Iain Goolager

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #4 on: 22/06/2011 at 10:49 »
from the hip I'd say that although diameter is very important for leader selection a respectable leader manufacturer should have a line (any material) that has a mainline breaking strain of very close to or erring on the generous side of that stated on the spool.
I for one like to know what I've got to play with and am bored of tippet snapping below it's stated BS.

Then I have an idea of how much pressure I can place on a fish for the selected diameters of my assembled cast.

Stiff or supple? Depends on the fishing method but dare I say just stiff enough to leave the fly hanging at 45 degrees.

Have to go..
Iain

Iain Goolager

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #5 on: 22/06/2011 at 11:03 »
Never seen any need to use anything other than flouro or mono for wets, nymphs, buzzers.

Dry fly tippet is another story - I guess it depends on what type of water you are fishing, slow flowing /still water or faster current or drift. I find that copolymer tends to be a bugger to sink (this is my nemesis) in my typically chosen diameters and flouro sinks better but can sink too fast and cling to weed when fishing static in stillwater.

What we need is flourolmer  :z16 with a specific gravity of that required to keep it 0.039" under the surface :shock

Iain

Matt Henderson

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #6 on: 22/06/2011 at 11:23 »
As a non fishing geek, I instantly get intimidated when it comes to these things.  I wonder how many other anglers are in the same boat as me and don't really get the whole thing about copolymer/fluorcarbon, breaking strain and diameters.  Personally I ignore breaking strain in favour of diameter and have a rough idea of how long a length of each I can turn over successfully and avoid constant tangles.  For wets really need some stiffness to push the droppers out and avoid tangling.  So something easily understandable is the key for me.

Cheers

matt

Sandy Nelson

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #7 on: 23/06/2011 at 07:08 »
Quite an interesting cross section of opinions.

A few observations.

Many of the copolymer tippet materials are of a narrower diameter than the equivalant breaking strain of Florocarbon, in fact only a couple of specific brands of Fluoro are thin, most get by on being clear and the theory about light refraction.
Something else to consider is many of the "Fluorocarbon' lines are nylon coated with fluorocarbon, not a pure material, these lines tend to be cheaper and thicker than good co-poly.
Personally i like fluorocarbon as a tippet (particularly Grand Max) but i don't like the fact that it doesn't degrade in sunlight, which is why i don't use it. So i tend towards clear Co-poly as it does a similar job, but has better knot strength (although both materials require wetting prior to tightening) and is a bit more environmentally friendly.

Stiffness is another issue, i would imagine that making a leader material stiffer would increase its potential for memory, however if you rub it with your fingers to get it warm while stretching it then most tippet straighten out with no real problems (i've done this with 60lb saltwater tippets :z16). I use Frog hair a lot and find it has a nice balance of stiffness and diameter. How you would quantify this i'm not quite sure :z6.
If a leader is too limp then it will not turnover, if it is too stiff then you lose the subtle presentation that your fly line is giving you with its tapered profile.
Obviously the length of the leader also has a bearing on how stiff or limp it is, i suppose this is why i tend to use a 7-9ft tapered leader with a fairly stiff tippet. it gives me the continuation of the taper to get the presentation but also the stiffer tippet to turnover the fly. my tippets are rarely longer than 6 ft (usually 3ft of level diameter, with another 3ft stepped down for droppers), with most leaders, i'd be looking at 10-12ft single fly and 12-15ft for 2 flies

Fly size and style will have a bearing on this as will the profile of the fly line.

Lots of variables with no correct answer.

However if the question is colour or diameter, i'd always go for clear, preferably matt and use whatever diameter suits the fly i'm fishing.

So i'd like a narrow, fairly stiff, matt clear, co-poly, with good knot strength, little memory and the ability to cut through the surface film and sink very slowly :z16

Sandy

Not much to ask for :z4

Irvine Ross

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #8 on: 23/06/2011 at 08:26 »
Sandy has got it absolutely right as far as I am concerned. :z16

My co-poly tippets sink without any bother so I don't know why anyone else has problems. That said, the one brand I tried of fluorcarbon, I couldn't get  to sink, however many times I rubbed it with gunge.

Irvine

adambrain

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #9 on: 23/06/2011 at 08:31 »
As a non fishing geek, I instantly get intimidated when it comes to these things.  I wonder how many other anglers are in the same boat as me and don't really get the whole thing about copolymer/fluorcarbon, breaking strain and diameters.  Cheers

matt

I completely agree Matt, I've fished all my life and used to be a carp angler and it dosen't get more technical than that. I've been fly fishing now for over 3 years I find i catch just as many fish if not more sometimes than everyone else with just a single length of fluorocarbon (usually my rod length for shallow lochs ) and never felt the need to complicate the matter with tapered leaders and what not.
But however I'm sure if Mike is looking to make a tippet material he will do a good job and will defo give it a bash, the only thing I would reqest would be something similar to fluorocarbon but with better knot strength.

Adam  

Mike Barrio

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #10 on: 24/06/2011 at 09:28 »
Lot's of great feedback there guys :z16

Cheers
Mike

Hamish Young

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #11 on: 24/06/2011 at 09:37 »
I can't see beyond Riverge Grand Max which does all I ask of it (but is buggeringly expensive) but it's essential qualities - described by Sandy - make a perfect leader material IMHO and one worth copying.
:z3

Dutchfly

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #12 on: 24/06/2011 at 11:19 »
I use Shogun for all my fishing. Don't know what it's made of (fluo???) but it's very strong, abrasive resistant and has low spool memory. To give you an example, diameter of 0,16 mm has a breaking strength of 3,6 kg.
It says on the box that the diameter is consistent, but they really mean that the diameter is consistently 0,015 / 0,02 mm higher, so 0,16 mm is 0,18 mm.
Still, at a fraction of the cost of Riverge... Not sure where you can buy it in the UK though  :roll  

Good luck with the project Mike!


Jeroen

Allan Liddle

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #13 on: 27/06/2011 at 10:42 »
To be honest i still use Maxima green 4lb or 3lb most of the time which gives me the knot strength i require, stiff enough to turn over but not too stiff to kill the action of the fly and comes at a cost i don't bauk at.

Yes i've spools of other mats for difficult fish but 90% of the time it's the above (well for wild troots at least)

So in no particular order i'd suggest:

Knot strength, suppleness, diameter and matt finish.

Cheers

Dryflee

Ben Dixon

Re: Leader Material Design
« Reply #14 on: 27/06/2011 at 13:50 »
Hi Mike,

Depends upon what I am fishing with.  Tapered leaders IMO should always be supple, I've tried stiff fluoro tapered leaders and do not like them at all presentation suffers.  As for tippet, I use Fluoro for most multi fly rigs as the stiffness helps to stop some twisting  / tangles, for dries on the river I have gone back to double strength copolymer as it is much more supple and allows the fly to behave more naturally on a drift.  I'd also tend to use copolymer for any very small or light subsurface fly for the same reason.  I always use fluoro for salmon and saltwater, it is more abrasion resistant.

Whatever you decide on, you should make it known or write a bit about selecting the right diameter for size and weight of fly, maybe a table with X number and suggested fly sizes.  Will save you grief of folk complaining about 6lb tippet breaking when fishing goldhead blobs etc!!

Cheers

Ben 

 




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