[Irvine Ross]

Nice

No tubes though   This is what i think its for 

Sandy

If the salmon fishers have swoped big single hooks for tube flies, because there is less chance of the fish levering out the hook, how come SW fly fishers are still using big single hooks?

Irvine

[Sandy Nelson]

Sandy

If the salmon fishers have swoped big single hooks for tube flies, because there is less chance of the fish levering out the hook, how come SW fly fishers are still using big single hooks?

Irvine

Its a good question and probably worthy of its own topic Might just move it and see what we get

[Sandy Nelson]

I'm actually interested to see what people make of the Singles to tube thing?
I had never thought it was to do with leverage (but its an interesting idea) but more to do with castability and the presentation of the fly in the water.

I know i have seen very few Saltwater tubes, although i have seen some.
With a strong current on a river where you would fish for salmon, then a single hook may be prone to twisting so a tube eliminates this to a large extent. A double hook will keel nicely like a boat so will be more stable too.
However in Saltwater , generally you are fishing without the turbulence of the river so a single hook will keel nicely and will probably be easier to strike home in the hard boney saltwater fishes mouth. Just a thought.

I know in Australia a lot of the lure fishermen, are replacing the trebles on their rapala's and the like, with singles as a conservation measure, the jig fishing guys use singles too, they can be much stronger than trebles or doubles for an equivalent size.

Is anyone fishing the Tubes with singles? i know a lot are fished with doubles as they help the fly present better. Would be interesting to see if the tube can be fished with a single hook effectively.

It will be very interesting to see other people's take on this one

Sandy

[Rob Brownfield]

I sometimes use a tube for Pike..and its always with a single. This is mainly because of conservation, but also because I want a largish gape. A double or treble that size would be hard to cast and have the back of the fly sitting a lot lower than the front.

My understanding regarding singles and saltwater is that there are several reasons as to why a single is used :-

1. Hard or toothy mouths. It is far easier to get one point to dig in than 2 or three. The more points the more any force from a "strike" is disipated. With a hard or toothy mouth its important to drive the hook home and three points dont help.

2. Strength. A single can be made in a far heavier gauge (thus stronger) than a double or treble for the same given weight. You could argue that a smaller treble can be used, but it would not be big enough to carry the material required for a big baitfish imitation.

3. Strength part deux. Over the years I have has quite a number of good quality trebles (Owner/Gamakatsu) squashed by Pike. I can imagine a Tunny or Cuda making mincemeat of your average treble by biting down on it.

4. Hooking. With fish that bite down hard, even a strong strike does not move the fly. It is only when the fish starts to open its mouth after clamping the hook that it slides across the mouth and digs in to the scissors. A double/treble would not fold flat and therefore not slide into the best place for hooking (Scissors) and would either be crushed or catch on the tongue/roof of the mouth where the hook is prone to slip and fall out.

5. Danger. Anyone who has been saltwater fly fishing for tropical species can testify to there power and ability to give as good as they get when on the boat. Having trebles flying around can be dangerous.

6. Gape. Many of the saltwater flies are built for BIG fish. Everything needs scaled up, including the gape of the hook to find a strong hold. Again, a size 8/0 treble just would not make a feasible (castable) fly, but an 8/0 single would.



I find it interesting that the old Dee and Spey patterns were tied on MASSIVE hooks yet the same beats today use small tubes and hooks. I had a few original Dee flies that were dressed on hooks some 5-6 inches long..even bigger than Rapalas and Minnows!

[Irvine Ross]

Rob

You are assuming that a tube fly = a treble hook.

Not necessarily. Its quite possible to fit a single hook on the end of a tube. Salar and Loop make tube single hooks. some of the smaller salt water singles could easily fit onto the end of a tube.

Personally I never use trebles on tubes, only doubles with the barb flattened. That it's not singles is probably more due to habit than anything else.

Irvine

[Ben Dixon]

Tubes normally come away from the hook when playing a fish and as fairly short shanked hooks are generally used, chances of the hook (single, double or treble) being levered out are small when compared to a waddington with any given hook on the back, this is one of the advantages of tubes over Waddingtons and also IMO anything dressed on any longshanked single hook.  I am not a fan of long shanked hooks as I believe that they do loose more fish, looking at tying streamers on tubes for this year.  The other advantage of tubes over flies dressed on Waddington shanks or hooks is that the hook can easily be changed if damaged, damage a hook on a fly and the fly is goosed. 

Using tubes for SW fishing makes sense to me.  For one they will not rust as flies dressed on non stainless hooks will, not a big fan of stainless hooks as I don't like the thought of leaving a non corroding hook in a fish.

As for the weight thing Sandy, you have it part right.  When dressing tubes for salmon I will tie on copper or brass for heavy flows or when I want the fly to move very slowly, a single will swim on an even keel as it should unless weight has been added or it is perculiarly dressed but it will swim and swing quicker in the same flow than a heavy tube. 
Plastic & aluminium tubes are used for lighter flies where more movement is required or when you want the fly to be less "anchored" in the water during the swim.  I tie Sunray type flies on Aluminium or plastic tubes, tying these on tubes is not so much for weight or for movement but because I often want the body to be about 2 - 3" long and I would not like to try fishing a light wire single of that size.  I would be concerned about it straightening or it levering out. 

A freind of mine who does a lot of big pollock fishing uses tubes most of the time, usually plastic or aluminium and these are no problem to cast on a singlehander, not a big fan of overhead casting anything made from copper or brass though.

Cheers

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Rob

You are assuming that a tube fly = a treble hook.

Nope ..read my first line

I think the original question was "Why do SW fly fishers still use big singles..."

 

[Irvine Ross]

Yup

All your 6 points are about the disadvantages of treble hooks 

No mention of the function of a tube fly with a single hook vs a long shanked single hook.

Irvine

[Paul Rankine]

Hi Sandy,
                 Most of the big game tube flies , marlin, sailfish , etc use single hooks (even tied up pennell fashion when boat fishing ) . No real reason why you should not use short shanked SW singles on tube flies in my opinion.  For fresh or salt. I,ve used these myself but not pennel fashion.........

 I don't really buy in to the "unbalanced in the non flow" argument in saltwater either Sandy. Generally when SW shore fishing the angler is letting the fly drift, sink or pulling it . The dressing on the tube is "working" all the time , the fly does not have to be balanced in the sense of optimising presentation in  a river environment. I would make sure that the dressing extends around the tube and extends beyond the hook point though.

A single hook on a tube has all the advantages that Ben mentions and in short I think that the disadvantages are exaggerated. Probably an area that is ripe for exploration .

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth.

Paul.

[Rob Brownfield]

Yup

All your 6 points are about the disadvantages of treble hooks 

No mention of the function of a tube fly with a single hook vs a long shanked single hook.

Irvine

I'll fight ya!..lol

I still say the question is why do SW fishers use singles...


In answer to your question , I see salmon anglers using singles for no other reason than conservation/fashion. A Single is far easier to pop out than a double/treble.

On plastic tubes (I use plastic biro tubes for my Pike flies), a single offers a flatter tradgectory for the fly. I found a treble was too heavy and made the fly sit tail down. Like Ben I use a very short shanked hook, a carp one infact, that is needle sharp, and vey very light/strong....an Owner Cutting Point.

[Sandy Nelson]

 I don't really buy in to the "unbalanced in the non flow" argument in saltwater either Sandy.

Sorry Paul but I don't understand this statement ???.( non argumentative comment )

However I was wondering if the type of imitation has a lot to do with it. Many of the Saltwater flies i've been tying are to represent baitfish, the ones i'm imitating are often quite deep in profile and somewhat flat so getting a fly to turn out flat that will present like the fish is important, especially on the clear water in OZ. A lot of the flies with eyes, use the eyes as the main trigger point, attaching large eyes to a tube may not be that easy, then again i don't see why it could not be done.
Weighted eyes would work too, i guess, as the tube basically becomes the body of the fly and will present the way you tie it like a single. (i might ask this question on the Ozzie forum to see what they come back with)

If i were imitating rounder fish or Sandeel type things or squids, then i can see where a tube would be quite useful.
I like the non-corrosive point Ben makes too.

Its all good stuff this, wish i'd thought of the question myself

Might have a go at tying a saltwater tubefly, (i have something that might work )

Sandy

[Paul Rankine]

HI Sandy,
                 Not an argument ,of course not.  Constructive comment always.
""unbalanced in the non flow" . What I was getting at was that SW tube flies don't always need a strong flow to fish properly. As you say depends on what you are trying to imitate , of course. I would,nt dress a crab pattern on one  but I would a shrimp.
Even with a flat sided fish (shad?) imitator it should be possible to use singles on a tube so long as the hook is allowed to remain as a keel ?  , up or down point. I was thinking myself of rigging up a light tube pattern with a heavy keeled hook  or far better a pair of weighted eyes as you,ve suggested.

Also on my bench are some tubes with Magic Heads attached , (for salmon , funny that ) and then there is Frodin ! Lots of room for some hydrodynamic experimentation !

How about this Elver with a single hook and weighted eyes to keep it the right way up ?

That's gotta catch sea trout !

Paul.

[Sandy Nelson]

Hi Paul

I see what you where getting at now

I like the elver, one comment though are the eyes on the top of the tube? if so then it may fish upside down

I had a wee go at a tube fly too
This should work well out here for GT's (i hope )



Sandy

[Irvine Ross]

Fly?

Looks like a navigation buoy

Irvine

[Paul Rankine]

Sandy,
             Holy Bejusus ! Now that's what I call a Popper !!

I just used an image of the Elver fly it has,nt  any eyes at the moment .
I would change the dressing depending on what you are looking for - Eyes under in this case of course.
Also possible to juggle eyes weight and position and hook weight to get the hook to fish uppermost obviously , very useful in weedy areas . I have a few pollack flies dressed like that on large singles but principle is the same .
New working digital camera coming at end of the month so I'll see if I can put up a few efforts . Maybe we should start a new thread with a prize for the most outlandish tube fly creation !!!  Your'e winning so far .

Paul.