[Jim Eddie]

I was having a bit of a practice on Saturday but had to give up in frustration    I could not stop throwing tailing loops , the harde I tried the worse it got.

I was casting West to East , the wind was coming North to South , does wind actually have any impact on the problem or is it just my casting ?

 

Jim
 

[Iain Goolager]

Hi Jim,

this is one of my biggest annoyances - the curse of the self taught veteran?.
If I could only get a handle on this problem,  I 'think' addressing this would allow me to move closer toward the technique that I'm aiming for.


Hope you weren't practicing whilst fishing! tut! tut!

Iain

[Jim Eddie]

I was Iain and its so wrong  Seriouslly as soon as things start to go wrong , you just give up and go and fish 

 

Jim

[Iain Goolager]

Yes, Mike was right leave the practicing and fishing seperate.

Practicing the double haul while fishing = new leader & an instant return to what you know

[Ben Dixon]

Hi Jim,
Wind does funny things to your cast, even when you know how you should be casting you will be subconsciously compensating for the wind.  You were probably overhitting the cast and making it tail, best thing for a wind is a narrow loop and high line speed but it is hard to practice either when fishing and even harder to diagnose whe  I have not seen it.  If you know you will be passing through Banchory at any time, drop me a line and I will have a look if the shop is not too busy.

Cheers

Ben

[Peter McCallum]

What Ben said.

It's the 'one last push' that does it.

[Jim Eddie]

Thanks for the advice guys , knowing what I'm doing wrong is one thing , stopping doing it is another 

 

Jim

[Irvine Ross]

Jim

I went out for a wee practice in the field on Saturday. When I tried to carry more line in the air I started throwing tailing loops too.

Then I remembered that Magnus had said that to carry more line you have to lengthen your casting stroke. When I did that the tailing loops almost went away. Then I just concentrated on not jerking at the start of the forward stroke and that cured it.

If you have the same fault as me that might work for you. If not, you'll have to contact your local casting guru

Cheers

Irvine

[Magnus Angus]

Hi Jim

Thing we didn't try at the Outcast day was the Casting Analyzer - it's essentially a rate gyro that fits to the rod butt. That measures the rate of angle change and the duration of the angle change - combine that and with 'a little' maths it calculates the angle through which the rod moves during a casting stroke - aka the casting arc.

Thing is - if you think of the line as a weight, it varies by length so the casting arc need to vary to accommodate the length of carry. Similarly, if you think of the rod as a flexible lever it bends more when we hit a cast and really try for distance - so we need to vary the arc to accommodate our casting the tempo - the speed of the rod.

When I've tried the Analyzer on un-schooled/un-practiced casters they tend to have one casting arc (typically about 65 degrees if you're interested) - with a short line their loops look wide - with a very long false cast they start to throw tailing loops = somewhere in between they throw efficient loops. To throw efficient loops with any length of line means learning to use a variable casting arc - narrower for a short line - wider for a longer line - wider for a fast hit when you intend to shoot line.

To learn that you need to learn loop control -  look at the loop with a fixed length of line - make a comfortable loop - narrow the loop by using a narrower casting arc - widen the loop by opening the casting arc. You can do that with any length of line. Tailing loops tend to mean, exactly as you say, the arc is too narrow for either the length of line or the power being applied to the rod.

However - that's not the only cause of tailing loops - you can make them by shocking the rod (eg telling it male female ferrule jokes) if you start the stroke too suddenly the line can tail. If you creep the rod forwards during the pause your line will tail - actually if you creep the rod backwards during the pause before a backwards stroke you can easily make a tailing loop going that way too. (The cure for that is learning to drift the rod in the direction of the loop during the pause before starting the stroke - just that can add yards to most caster's comfortable distance.)

Magnus

[Jim Eddie]

Thanks for that Magnus ,

 I probaly need to try the casting anlayzer at the next Outcast day. I also probaly need somone to watch what I'm doing wrong and not what I think i'm doing wrong.

I probably aslo should have mentioned I was using the "Outcast" rod for the first time , also I have not used the line I had on it , a WF5 Cortland 444 , It did not seem to be loading the rod, it felt to light for the rod.   

 

Jim

[Sandy Nelson]

Jim

Sounds like a plan I'll watch, probably not much help though.But some video footage might?
The 'outcast' rod, loaded very well with a Barrio WF5F so the 444 should be similar.
I would reckon its either the change to a 5wt (takes a bit of getting used to from a 7) or perhaps, dare i say it, Did you get Hamish to put the line on
The other possibility is perhaps you were carrying too much of the standard wf and it was collapsing on you, would give the tailing loops and make it very hard to shoot.
A lot of the distance stuff is done with long head lines, have you tried doing it with a DT? if you are carrying a lot in the air.

Sandy

[Paul Rankine]

Hi,
    Some causes of tailing loops. My tuppence halfpenny's worth.

1)    Mis-timing the cast .

 If you start the rod moving forwards before the line is fully extended  backwards  then you will create a tailing loop on your next forward cast. The opposite also applies.
If you move the rod backwards before the line is fully extended frontwards , you will create a tailing loop on your back cast.

Cure: Do not start the rod moving until the line is fully extended front and back  !! Watch your line . The timing will soon become second nature .

2)   Too much power in .

This can bounce the rod tip causing a shock wave to travel along the line which when it reaches the end , throws the fly down under the fly line . This can occurr on both the front and back casts.

Cure: Take your foot of the gas . Remember the fly line weighs only a few grams . Aim to use the minumum energy required and you will become an effortless caster . Honest !

3) Too little power .

 Particularly with weighted flies, the line and fly has insufficient energy to turn over resulting in a tailing loop .

Cure: Increase power application by trial and error until the loop extends above the rod tip travelling smoothly backwards and forwards on each false cast .


4) Starting the cast in one plane and ending in another . (Particularly when it's windy)

Cure : Try to picture your cast and move the rod tip backwards and forwards in the same plane . Get someone to watch you and tell you what they see. I find that it helps to keep a weather eye on your thumb to ensure that it tracks back and forth in the same plane . ie. Thumb controls direction of rod tip , rod tip controls direction of fly line .

Far easier to demonstrate these things than describe them in words. I,m sure Magnus will be able to add to /edit the above .

 Agree with Ben , you need to get someone to watch you.  ,often what we think we are doing is not what we are actually doing.

Hope some of that makes sense and is useful to us tailing loopers. (Everybody does it sometime).

Paul.

[Ben Dixon]

Jim,

One of the outcast rods I played with did have a very soft tip, cant remember which one it was, I am sure Mike will know.  I was throwing serious tails with it when I first picked it up, took some getting used to.

Paul,

I am not quite sure what you mean, a tailing loop is caused by the rod tip being forced through a concave path during the stroke.  I wouldnt think that changing planes during the cast would cause a tail?


Cheers

Ben

[Rob Brownfield]

Take up Bens offer!!!! He took me over to the field and gave me a good thrashing with a Zero gravity...did a bit of analysis...pointed out a few things...and i went away wanting the ZG but also with a bit more knowledge!

Well worth the trip to Banchory!!

[Magnus Angus]

Hi Paul

Rather predictably I'd agree and disagree with some of your list of causes. As Ben says a tail is cause by the rod tip travelling a concave tip path rather than a straight or near straight path - too much power over a narrow arc is a classic form - power that's applied too suddenly causes a 'buckle' in the tip path, the tip dips below the ideal path for an instant - the tip is accelerating the line too much for that instant - then the rate of rod acceleration decreases, the rod straightens, the tip rises to nearer its ideal path - but the line was accelerated, has momentum from, that moment of excessive power, and is effectively travelling faster than the rod tip.

Too little power tends to cause big wide loops or a stalling loop - I'd hesitate to call that a tailing loop.

Changing planes during the cast is a can of worms - if the back and forward strokes are in different planes and the line fully extends the cast works fine and is a conventional casting style - its called an Oval cast or Belgian cast or if you want to get really fancy its Gebetsroither Technique  Many anglers and casters from mainland Europe use it - Roman Moser gave a brilliant demo at BFFI using a finger on top grip.
Changing planes during the stroke itself curves the tip path, we can use that to throw curved presentation casts. Where is gets interesting is that it can turn the loop on its side - some demonstrators use it to make their loops look tighter than they are. When we do that unintentionally it can cause problems straightening the line - the end of the line stalls or struggles to turn over - again I would hesitate to call the effect a tailing loop.